MP calls on senior council officer to resign after Peel Hall appeal (From Warrington Guardian)

It's not a botch. Let's forget about that. Farrall has previous.

http://www.chesterch
ronicle.co.uk/cheste
r-news/local-chester
-news/2005/02/18/stu
ck-in-the-middle-ove
r-glass-development-
59067-15204547/

This time, WBC, get it sorted. Deal with it.

This department is rotten from top to bottom and the same pattern always emerges. If the council refuse to deal with it, I suggest somebody within the council calls the police to start asking questions about why these things happen time and time again at the expense of residents but the profit of developers.

This was supposed to be a member led administration, so we were told all those months back in 2011. What were council members doing taking their eyes off the ball on such a high profile matter as Peel Hall, and leaving it all to officers who had already been severely criticized for repeated inaction in an equally high profile report? Don't tell us we are to get another hurriedly arranged report from Prof Broomhead (a la Bridgefoot) that will tell us mistakes were made but lessons have been learned? Helen Jones MP should by now know we have lost trust in the entire Council not just Mr Farrall and the planners. We have more than a reasonable crop of bad apples.

grey_man is right. When Wirral officers were called into question for their wanton behaviour the members outsourced officers from neighbouring boroughs to carry out their functions in the proper manner.That was no the end of that corrupt matter but at least it was start in the right direction.

Helen Jones taking such publicised interest in this development and also on the actions of planning, despite having stated that an MP cannot get involved on other sites (which were presumably less politically sensitive sites). Still, if anyone can get some form of response from those at the top of the council when many others have failed, it must surely be the local MP.

Glad to see that Billy Lines-Rowland has re-appeared after his failure to comment on Terry O'Neill's rejection of the Peel Hall Park petition.


Perhaps Billy and Helen Jones should also be calling for O'Neill's resignation.

Samantha1000 wrote:
This is no mistake. Farrall plus the principal planner, who is Michael Davis & any legal officer assigned to the case, should be suspended today. No messing around, get them suspended pending a full inquiry.

Not just some council officers are more than happy this has happened - made to happen is nearer the truth. It's ceratinly not an oversight, whatever the inquiry report says. So I can't see what a call to the interim CEO will do, other than muddy the waters until it all dies down and they can plot another planning trick to con us with. If the members can't find enough honest, upright ones amongst them with the gumption to tackle this head on, without worrying whose names are implicated, then heaven help Warrington. Have you noticed 'Warrington' has the same number of letters as 'corruption'?

Nobody from the planning department available for comment? Shameful.

Billy its simply not good enough. Drastic action is required. There are planners in that department who are serial liars, as well as serial offenders. I think its time to disband it and get another authority to take over until it is cleared out.

Billy Porter wrote:
Nobody from the planning department available for comment? Shameful.

I guess that they are at work from 8:30 - 18:00.

Gorsedd wrote:

Samantha1000 wrote:
This is no mistake. Farrall plus the principal planner, who is Michael Davis & any legal officer assigned to the case, should be suspended today. No messing around, get them suspended pending a full inquiry.

Not just some council officers are more than happy this has happened - made to happen is nearer the truth. It's ceratinly not an oversight, whatever the inquiry report says. So I can't see what a call to the interim CEO will do, other than muddy the waters until it all dies down and they can plot another planning trick to con us with. If the members can't find enough honest, upright ones amongst them with the gumption to tackle this head on, without worrying whose names are implicated, then heaven help Warrington. Have you noticed 'Warrington' has the same number of letters as 'corruption'?

Just as someone once said of the German secret service, planning in Warrington is done by a colony of coots in an unventilated backwater of bureaucracy. Now there will inevtiably be more allegations from all parts of the local Labour organization of hacking into one another's computers and laying false email trails, while this particular internal battle is waged. All the while we the people of Warrington have to put with more deceit and duplicity, when we should be getting openness and trasparency?

Samantha1000 wrote:
Billy its simply not good enough. Drastic action is required. There are planners in that department who are serial liars, as well as serial offenders. I think its time to disband it and get another authority to take over until it is cleared out.

According to British Law, are they not innocent until "proved" guilty? Don't you agree?

too much of a bad smell coming from that department. It is a shame for those officers who are not too blame, but too many of the leadership are clearly at best incompetent.

Agreed
get rid of Farrell and the crooked management in Planning

councillors take control of ALL departments as we cannot trust the executive s to do their jobs honestly.

Samantha1000 wrote:
Billy its simply not good enough. Drastic action is required. There are planners in that department who are serial liars, as well as serial offenders. I think its time to disband it and get another authority to take over until it is cleared out.

Have you done anything about? You seem to have some evidence that you can pin on one or more individuals. You could report it to the Local Government Ombudsman:

Call the LGO Advice Team for advice or to make a complaint by telephone. They are available from 8.30am to 5.00pm, Monday to Friday (but not from 9.30am to 10.30am Tuesday to Friday). You can also text or email them.

You might get somewhere with your issue WCB Members and Officers of its Planning Team.

Samantha1000 wrote:
This is no mistake. Farrall plus the principal planner, who is Michael Davis & any legal officer assigned to the case, should be suspended today. No messing around, get them suspended pending a full inquiry.

well said Samantha, that's hit the nail right on the head

Don't worry any evidence & experiences of this LPA have been reported to the correct agencies and people, who can actually do something about the LPA. It may take some time, but that department along with other departments within WBC, will be sorted out.

http://www.facebook.
com/groups/127334547
418004/ wrote:
Samantha1000 wrote:
This is no mistake. Farrall plus the principal planner, who is Michael Davis & any legal officer assigned to the case, should be suspended today. No messing around, get them suspended pending a full inquiry.

well said Samantha, that's hit the nail right on the head

In my opinion and experience there needs to be some really good reason to suspend these folk, not just differences of opinion or assumptions or unfounded rumours. Also the same process for the WBC Councillors.

Samantha1000 wrote:
Don't worry any evidence & experiences of this LPA have been reported to the correct agencies and people, who can actually do something about the LPA. It may take some time, but that department along with other departments within WBC, will be sorted out.

Then in my opinion, let us wait the outcome of the report from the scrutinising body as they reveal the true facts before sounding off. As I've said before: "Innocent until proven guilty ..."

Yet another foul up by the abymal O'Neill council. The whole thing from top to bottom seems to be in a mess!

Where is O'Neill himself while all this is going on? Hiding in a corner somewhere? This looks like a spectacular fail. I never though I'd hear myself say this but reading this article, I find myself actually agreeing with helen jones!!!

yazhoo1 wrote:
Yet another foul up by the abymal O'Neill council. The whole thing from top to bottom seems to be in a mess!

Where is O'Neill himself while all this is going on? Hiding in a corner somewhere? This looks like a spectacular fail. I never though I'd hear myself say this but reading this article, I find myself actually agreeing with helen jones!!!

Don't be fooled she is preparing for an election. I think you should trust your intuition it has served you well in the past.

Helen Jones MP is absolutely right. I have worked in the public sector where I too have seen senior figures fail to take any responsibility for there actions. About time something was done!

IF YOU AGREE THAT ANDY FARRALL SHOULD RESIGN, THEN TELL THE COUNCILLORS.

Here are the email addresses for all the councillors on the planning committee from the WBC website, plus Helen Jones MP, plus Steven Broomhead the Chief Executive. People in Mill Lane are fully supportive of Mrs Jones. The whole thing makes you lose all respect and trust in the town council. This needs all the townsfolk of Warrington to tell them what we think.

Send your emails calling for Andy Farrall to resign to

Clr Bob Barr - bbarr@warrington.gov
.uk
Clr Jan Davidson - jdavidson@warrington
.gov.uk
Clr Graham Friend - gfriend@warrington.g
ov.uk
Clr Tony Higgins - thiggins@warrington.
gov.uk
Clr Leslie Hoyle - tlhoyle@warrington.g
ov.uk
Clr Celia Jordan - cjordan@warrington.g
ov.uk
Clr Lottie Ladbury - lladbury@warrington.
gov.uk
Clr Tony McCarthy - tmccarthy@warrington
.gov.uk
Clr Laurence Murphy - lmurphy1@warrington.
gov.uk
Clr Faisal Rashid - frashid@warrington.g
ov.uk
Clr Jeff Richards - jrichards@warrington
.gov.uk
Clr Geoff Settle - gsettle@warrington.g
ov.uk
Helen Jones MP - jonesh@parliament.uk


Steven Broomhead - sbroomhead@warringto
n.gov.uk

and why not tell Andy Farrall himself too!!
afarrall@warrington.
gov.uk

This really is the only way they will listen and act when people start demanding some action and RESPONSIBILITY.

Nancy

Nancy1970 wrote:
Helen Jones MP is absolutely right. I have worked in the public sector where I too have seen senior figures fail to take any responsibility for there actions. About time something was done!

IF YOU AGREE THAT ANDY FARRALL SHOULD RESIGN, THEN TELL THE COUNCILLORS.

Here are the email addresses for all the councillors on the planning committee from the WBC website, plus Helen Jones MP, plus Steven Broomhead the Chief Executive. People in Mill Lane are fully supportive of Mrs Jones. The whole thing makes you lose all respect and trust in the town council. This needs all the townsfolk of Warrington to tell them what we think.

Send your emails calling for Andy Farrall to resign to

Clr Bob Barr - bbarr@warrington.gov

.uk
Clr Jan Davidson - jdavidson@warrington

.gov.uk
Clr Graham Friend - gfriend@warrington.g

ov.uk
Clr Tony Higgins - thiggins@warrington.

gov.uk
Clr Leslie Hoyle - tlhoyle@warrington.g

ov.uk
Clr Celia Jordan - cjordan@warrington.g

ov.uk
Clr Lottie Ladbury - lladbury@warrington.

gov.uk
Clr Tony McCarthy - tmccarthy@warrington

.gov.uk
Clr Laurence Murphy - lmurphy1@warrington.

gov.uk
Clr Faisal Rashid - frashid@warrington.g

ov.uk
Clr Jeff Richards - jrichards@warrington

.gov.uk
Clr Geoff Settle - gsettle@warrington.g

ov.uk
Helen Jones MP - jonesh@parliament.uk



Steven Broomhead - sbroomhead@warringto

n.gov.uk

and why not tell Andy Farrall himself too!!
afarrall@warrington.

gov.uk

This really is the only way they will listen and act when people start demanding some action and RESPONSIBILITY.

Nancy

You would be just wasting your time. There needs to be some evidence of some kind. The people that you have listed will only fob you off or not reply to you comments. There needs to be an independent enquiry, perhaps as I have previously suggested, that is by those who have ant evidence to contact the Local Government Ombudsman, who will then bring the people (Councillors and Officers), responsible to account. I have also worked in local government with several authorities, and have seen a fair judgement applied using this honourable process.

"This is an outrageous failure by the planning department and a breach of trust with local people. The application to develop Peel Hall is so high profile, I cannot believe that it was simply "overlooked" by the department."

The Member of Parliament is spot on in what she says. How can something as important as this have just been "missed"? It doesn't make sense. If it was genuinely forgotten about, then we have a department that is totally unfit for purpose it almost beggars belief. There has been much press coverage about the Peel Hall issue. Dropping the ball on this would amount to nothing short of incompetence at almost epic proportions.

"The planning application will be considered in full by the council's development management committee, in the normal way..."

This is also a nonsense comment from Warrington Council. Of course it is not being dealt with in the normal way; the whole reason it is being addressed at all at the March meeting is because Satnam have submitted their appeal.

This "council spokesperson" (whoever they may be) has missed the point completely in their statement. They fail to address the fact that this situation wouldn't have arisen in the first place if THEY hadn't missed the 8 week deadline! A fact which, I notice, they haven't even bothered to apologise for in their statement. "We are disappointed" they say. Perhaps your disappointment would be eased if you had done your job properly?

I also notice they don't mention Mr Farrall, who seems to have done a disappearing act in the wake of the resignation calls.

The paragraph about the Planning Inspector determining whether to allow or dismiss the proposal is also beyond a joke. What if the council committee decides to APPROVE the application? I would hope they wouldn't, but if the process had been followed in the normal way, they would (as democracy allows) have that option. If they vote in favour of the application, will the appeal just be ditched? That is unlikely - because Satnam's appeal is based on the fact that Warrington Council has not HEARD their application in time. Essentially, they are saying that the statutory timescale hasn't been adhered to and so the right to decide is now being taken out of the council's hands. It's not an appeal against a decision (and can't be, because one hasn't been made, hence the problem!). However the committee votes, then, whether they choose to accept the plans or reject them, will be utterly meaningless. The council spokesperson does themselves little credit by trying to shape this into an ordinary, run-of-the-mill event. They spectacularly fail to mention their blundering and try to "carpet over" the whole debacle.

It also doesn't help that their comments come across as if the outcome of the committee vote is a foregone conclusion. That begs the question about other planning applications, and just how pre-determined they are?

Don't be fooled she is preparing for an election.

This, to me, isn't an election stunt. Helen Jones has campaigned very determinedly on the Peel Hall matter for a long time. Her stance hasn't changed, which is good to see. Billy Lines-Rowland, Steve Roberts and Helen Jones are right to call for "heads to roll". Let's see if the council listens to their calls.

"You would be just wasting your time."

No, let them hear what we have got to say! People should get their emails in to the planning committee members, Helen Jones, Steven Broomhead and Andy Farrall and call for him to GO. The only way they will listen if we try to make our voices heard!!

Nancy1970 wrote:
"You would be just wasting your time."

No, let them hear what we have got to say! People should get their emails in to the planning committee members, Helen Jones, Steven Broomhead and Andy Farrall and call for him to GO. The only way they will listen if we try to make our voices heard!!

We'll see! I still say that an independent enquiry will be fairer for all sides in this issue, and not in my opinion, the witch hunt you are proposing!

Any inquiry with which this council has any involvement however slight in arranging and overseeing will be worthless. They cannot be trusted.
The so called independent inquiry carried out after the last Ombudsman's report was handled by the people (officers) who were aware of the destruction of statutory records, covered it up for over four years and acted as though nothing was wrong. They were therefore the last people to have any part in that investigation. Council members left it to them and had no hand in it, why?. What were they afraid of? Some idea of how that inquiry was "massaged and managed" by those who had vested interest in that process can be gleaned from its eventual and much amended report which toned down the Ombudsman's criticism of "an extraordinary and inexcusable act or maladministration" to one of 'just a bit of muddled thinking'. The internal investigation into the debacle of Bridge Foot was similarly flawed, it spread the blame so wide its a wonder anyone was considered to have done anything wrong. Both inquiries said lessons had been learned, but that plainly is not true.On that basis as far as the people of Warrington are concerned, there will be nothing fair or transparent about an inquiry arranged by this council to look into its own handling of the Peel Hall fiasco. It will not restore trust.Its a bit like asking the Police Complaints Committee to investigate wrong doing by the Police. It is as well to remember this latest twist in the mismanagement of Peel Hall came after (not before) the council unreservedly accepted the Ombudsman's report and findings in 2011. Rather than putting its house in order it acted as if no one had ever done anything wrong and reverted to maladministration mode.

Time will tell as in all things.

Not if councillors continue to allow this situation to continue and refuse to ask difficult questions, Already we've got one councillor saying it's a 'botched job'. Really? Another?

The planning department is either not fit for purpose or it is corrupt. There are far too many examples of this kind of thing now cropping up routinely for anybody to draw any other conclusion. The fact that Farrall has such a colourful track record with these kinds of things suggest we may want to ask questions either about his competence or other motives.

This also goes beyond understanding why we have this situation but also knowing what exactly the point of voting is. If employees of the council just do whatever the hell they like, for whatever reason and without consequence there is absolutely no point in having elections and councillors.

The unwillingness or inability of our elected 'representatives' to deal with whatever the hell is going on not only subverts the local planning function, it subverts democracy in the town.

I don't think it is no longer acceptable for the council to investigate these things because of this. They should bring in outside agencies, including the police if necessary.

* I think it is no longer acceptable for the council to investigate these things because of this. They should bring in outside agencies, including the police if necessary.

grey_man wrote:
* I think it is no longer acceptable for the council to investigate these things because of this. They should bring in outside agencies, including the police if necessary.

Who do you suggest?

That is not for me to decide now is it? What is needed is a proper investigation into the functioning of this department, and certainly nothing like the half-baked and managed investigation into the records destruction.

The issue here is that this keeps happening, these so-called 'mistakes' invariably favour developers and we can all see them coming a mile off.

Incidentally, I'm still baffled as to why the Guardian has yet to report on the sale of a piece of council land in Howley for £44,000 based on advice from the planning department, who immediately granted an application for change of use for the land which was then sold on for £350,000. This happened last year.

It's one thing after another. What we really need now are some councillors to deal with this because for too long they've allowed the town to be run by this rabble without questioning things in anything like a robust enough fashion. I suspect many know far more than they admit publicly and I'm sure that goes for our local MPs too.

Not working in the planning department, and not having seen any of the relevant emails, paperwork, minutes of meetings etc. I couldn't (unlike some people) make a judgement on what has happened here.

All I could say is that having worked for several unitary authorities and county councils, I would be astounded if councillors were not aware of what was going on.

All too often nowadays officers are 'directed' by councilors to do things that are not right.

Out of Warrington wrote:
Not working in the planning department, and not having seen any of the relevant emails, paperwork, minutes of meetings etc. I couldn't (unlike some people) make a judgement on what has happened here.

All I could say is that having worked for several unitary authorities and county councils, I would be astounded if councillors were not aware of what was going on.

All too often nowadays officers are 'directed' by councilors to do things that are not right.

I think one of the most interesting facts to come out of the investigation in to the record destruction was that there were no emails, paperwork, minutes of meetings etc referring to it. I don't have your experience of working in councils, but I have worked with many large organisations and having no paper trail of any sort is enough in itself to set alarm bells ringing. Not only did someone or a group of people want to destroy the records, they didn't want any way for anybody else to pick up on what they had done. If it was a straightforward mistake as we are told, there would have been some reference to it in communications or meetings, but there wasn't.

I have to say the fact that the WBC statement on the matter is misleading, it talks of how it will be dealt with by the members in the same way and they will decide! Also how and inspector would have decided if the Councillors had threw it out, because the developer would have appealed. Whoever put that statement together wants sacking as well. It is clearly an attempt to mislead the public.

You can be sure that the misleading statement was cooked up by Farrall & his solicitor colleague aligned to the planners.

A poster yesterday also picked up on this, the arrogance of the officers is there for all to see

''This is also a nonsense comment from Warrington Council. Of course it is not being dealt with in the normal way; the whole reason it is being addressed at all at the March meeting is because Satnam have submitted their appeal.

This "council spokesperson" (whoever they may be) has missed the point completely in their statement. They fail to address the fact that this situation wouldn't have arisen in the first place if THEY hadn't missed the 8 week deadline! A fact which, I notice, they haven't even bothered to apologise for in their statement. "We are disappointed" they say. Perhaps your disappointment would be eased if you had done your job properly?''

Out of Warrington wrote:
Not working in the planning department, and not having seen any of the relevant emails, paperwork, minutes of meetings etc. I couldn't (unlike some people) make a judgement on what has happened here.

All I could say is that having worked for several unitary authorities and county councils, I would be astounded if councillors were not aware of what was going on.

All too often nowadays officers are 'directed' by councilors to do things that are not right.

I totally agree, it has been my experience also. I am also aware that the leading party local conclave will also have been aware and possibly suggested the action in the first place. I am aware that this happened in to other very local authorities before.

Nancy1970 wrote:
"You would be just wasting your time."

No, let them hear what we have got to say! People should get their emails in to the planning committee members, Helen Jones, Steven Broomhead and Andy Farrall and call for him to GO. The only way they will listen if we try to make our voices heard!!

I still think that you are people to waste their time and they would get more response on this issue from a brick wall than you would from those you have listed previously. Although I suspect that we will just have to agree to differ on this subject.

Karlar says...
12:34pm Mon 4 Feb 13

"This was supposed to be a member led administration, so we were told all those months back in 2011."

Wishful thinking perhaps, but if this is the way they lead then it is time to vote them out. I have observed that this group of members lack the necessary intelligence and experience to be able to comply ably with that task. They seem to have gone out of their way this time to not use even common sense. The officers are public servants to their masters the Councillors. Even when good advice is offered by the Officers it is certainly not always acted upon by Council members. It has been a long time since the WBC has been a member led authority.

"HELEN Jones MP has called for a senior officer at Warrington Borough Council to resign after councillors were told plans for 150 homes on Peel Hall will not be heard by the planning committee."
This is only words and rhetoric, with no conceivable action to make it actually happen. I wonder what Helen's plan B is then?

"HELEN Jones MP has called for a senior officer at Warrington Borough Council to resign after councillors were told plans for 150 homes on Peel Hall will not be heard by the planning committee."

This is only words and rhetoric, with no conceivable action to make it actually happen. I wonder what Helen's plan B is then?

grey_man wrote:
That is not for me to decide now is it? What is needed is a proper investigation into the functioning of this department, and certainly nothing like the half-baked and managed investigation into the records destruction.

The issue here is that this keeps happening, these so-called 'mistakes' invariably favour developers and we can all see them coming a mile off.

Incidentally, I'm still baffled as to why the Guardian has yet to report on the sale of a piece of council land in Howley for £44,000 based on advice from the planning department, who immediately granted an application for change of use for the land which was then sold on for £350,000. This happened last year.

It's one thing after another. What we really need now are some councillors to deal with this because for too long they've allowed the town to be run by this rabble without questioning things in anything like a robust enough fashion. I suspect many know far more than they admit publicly and I'm sure that goes for our local MPs too.

Well, you were making other suggestions about what shouldn't happen so I naturally thought that you may have some insight to be able to suggest some form of solution.

Dear SAC

I have come to the conclusion that you are clearly fishing, and your attitude is clearly one of,

'you don't have any evidence of corruption, so the officers are all safe from any inquiry / police action'

I would assume you work for the LPA.

SAC_in_Warrington wrote:
Karlar says...
12:34pm Mon 4 Feb 13

"This was supposed to be a member led administration, so we were told all those months back in 2011."

Wishful thinking perhaps, but if this is the way they lead then it is time to vote them out. I have observed that this group of members lack the necessary intelligence and experience to be able to comply ably with that task. They seem to have gone out of their way this time to not use even common sense. The officers are public servants to their masters the Councillors. Even when good advice is offered by the Officers it is certainly not always acted upon by Council members. It has been a long time since the WBC has been a member led authority.

You are quite right “It has been a long time since the WBC has been a member led authority”. During all that time we have had an officer say that planning systems will be put into place in Warrington which would be so open and transparent they be envied of other local authorities. Three years later that self same officer was around when statutory records were selectively destroyed and decided like the other “professionals” to keep quiet about it. One councillor, who should have been kept in the picture, is on record saying no one advised him of the destruction. I believe several others would also be entitled to honestly make the same claim. Other officers have repeatedly misled members by wrongly briefing them on matters when giving advice, in some instances giving them false information. Another officer wrote a report which was supposed to have fully apprised members of all the facts, but it failed to do so. Members of the public too have been misled by officers. They have said information that should have been publically available had been destroyed only for it to appear after it was too late or when the residents put more pressure on. Members of the public have been asked to send their drawings to WBC, because it was said council copies could not be easily reached. When residents produced their drawings they told they themselves had tampered with them because the drawings did not suit the briefings wrongly given to members. Understandably as a LA employee (or ex) you are right to say “The officers are public servants to their masters the Councillors.” Prof Broomhead recently put it differently, saying WBC Council is ‘a team effort with Councillors taking best advice from officers’. If only that were true, Councillors come from/with disparate backgrounds and experience, and are therefore dependent upon the advice they receive from officers. Time and again this has not happened, with uncomfortable regularity and the circumstances surrounding those events are always suspect. Audit trails, even at the most elementary levels are missing or nonexistent; briefings are wrong, selective or short facts or actions have been so delayed as to inconvenience the Council. Peel Hall is but one example.
I don’t not to say our Councillors are blameless. As you have said they have all allowed things to drift along for far too long and failed to use the mandate given when they are elected. But when one part of the team is intent on mischief, it is difficult for the other to function as it should. Our problem is to find out which part of the team is pulling its weight and who the make weights are. It will be difficult in the atmosphere of continual cover ups.

SAC

Are you seriously suggesting that it was councillors who asked employees of the council to break the law, cover up for it, refuse to co-operate with investigations, fail in their statutory duties, maladminstrate repeatedly in favour of developers and now conveniently screw up the Borough's most contentious planning issue - and that the employees just went along with it at the risk of their jobs and possible prosecution?

It's an interesting thought but it needn't trouble us too much IMO.

Here's my solution seeing as you ask - a full and independent investigation of the Borough's planing function looking at general problems and covering specific issues such as Marton Close, Peel Hall, the records destruction, the Howley case etc. The council to play as little role as possible in determining the scope and nature of the investigation and with no chance to edit the report as we have seen.

Then once that is done deal with each case as a specific issue with recommendations. If that means calling in the police to investigate certain things so be it.

Will it happen? Extremely unlikely. Or councillors could just press to deal with this issue now and as a disciplinary issue.

It would be interesting to know - wouldn't it? - who decided the best person to head up a department that was already up to its knees in scandal was a man like Andy Farrall fresh from an appearance in the High Court about the construction of a large manufacturing plant with no planning consent or environmental certification. Or do you think he was just doing what councillors told him there too?

Richard65 wrote:
Dear SAC

I have come to the conclusion that you are clearly fishing, and your attitude is clearly one of,

'you don't have any evidence of corruption, so the officers are all safe from any inquiry / police action'

I would assume you work for the LPA.

To make it clear, I am advocating the themes of truth and justice in this issue. I don't have any evidence with regard to the issue of the local planning authority and their action or non-action in the case of the Peel Hall building contractor. Apart from living in Warrington I have no connection with the Borough Council as you assume.

words words words all nothing but words.action is whats needed.the council needs to be shaken by its foundations,its there to serve its population not its members.

ste dodd

SAC

We all want truth and justice. Which is why when the planning department repeatedly fails in its duties to the benefit of developers, questions that aren't being asked by the council need to be raised.

It was only the actions of residents that stopped something dreadful happening in Marton Close, led to the LGO investigation and ultimately the exposure of the records destruction. It's clearly no good relying on the council to do the right thing unless they are embarrassed or forced into it.

grey_man wrote:
SAC

We all want truth and justice. Which is why when the planning department repeatedly fails in its duties to the benefit of developers, questions that aren't being asked by the council need to be raised.

It was only the actions of residents that stopped something dreadful happening in Marton Close, led to the LGO investigation and ultimately the exposure of the records destruction. It's clearly no good relying on the council to do the right thing unless they are embarrassed or forced into it.

Has this not been reported to the Local Government Ombudsman? If so where are they up to, in the process? If the issue has not been reported then why not?

No one seems to want to answer these simple questions.

In my opinion the overall responsibility lies with the Council Members. They also need to be aware that ignorance is no defence in law.

Of course the Marton Close scandal was dealt with by the LGO.

I agree that it is up to councillors to deal with this. The tragedy for the people of Warrington is that whenever one of them looks like they want something to happen, they are shushed up.

grey_man wrote:
Of course the Marton Close scandal was dealt with by the LGO.

I agree that it is up to councillors to deal with this. The tragedy for the people of Warrington is that whenever one of them looks like they want something to happen, they are shushed up.

I agree with you comment.

Samantha1000 wrote:
too much of a bad smell coming from that department. It is a shame for those officers who are not too blame, but too many of the leadership are clearly at best incompetent.

Obviously then you don't agree that they are innocent until "proved "guilty.

Samantha1000 wrote:
Billy its simply not good enough. Drastic action is required. There are planners in that department who are serial liars, as well as serial offenders. I think its time to disband it and get another authority to take over until it is cleared out.

Why don't you go ahead with your drastic action and report the evidence ( that you have alluded to in making the above comment), to the Local Government Ombudsman. Have the courage of your convictions, because your potential information may be just what finally settles the case for or against whosoever is responsible.

SAC, stop fishing, your clearly panicking and it shows.

The Ombudsman might reasonably argue that "I have shown you what's wrong in Warrington, with all my previous reports (>four in 10 years? plus three from the District Auditor), it's upto your Council to put things right."

Karlar wrote:

SAC_in_Warrington wrote:
Karlar says...
12:34pm Mon 4 Feb 13

"This was supposed to be a member led administration, so we were told all those months back in 2011."

Wishful thinking perhaps, but if this is the way they lead then it is time to vote them out. I have observed that this group of members lack the necessary intelligence and experience to be able to comply ably with that task. They seem to have gone out of their way this time to not use even common sense. The officers are public servants to their masters the Councillors. Even when good advice is offered by the Officers it is certainly not always acted upon by Council members. It has been a long time since the WBC has been a member led authority.

You are quite right “It has been a long time since the WBC has been a member led authority”. During all that time we have had an officer say that planning systems will be put into place in Warrington which would be so open and transparent they be envied of other local authorities. Three years later that self same officer was around when statutory records were selectively destroyed and decided like the other “professionals” to keep quiet about it. One councillor, who should have been kept in the picture, is on record saying no one advised him of the destruction. I believe several others would also be entitled to honestly make the same claim. Other officers have repeatedly misled members by wrongly briefing them on matters when giving advice, in some instances giving them false information. Another officer wrote a report which was supposed to have fully apprised members of all the facts, but it failed to do so. Members of the public too have been misled by officers. They have said information that should have been publically available had been destroyed only for it to appear after it was too late or when the residents put more pressure on. Members of the public have been asked to send their drawings to WBC, because it was said council copies could not be easily reached. When residents produced their drawings they told they themselves had tampered with them because the drawings did not suit the briefings wrongly given to members. Understandably as a LA employee (or ex) you are right to say “The officers are public servants to their masters the Councillors.” Prof Broomhead recently put it differently, saying WBC Council is ‘a team effort with Councillors taking best advice from officers’. If only that were true, Councillors come from/with disparate backgrounds and experience, and are therefore dependent upon the advice they receive from officers. Time and again this has not happened, with uncomfortable regularity and the circumstances surrounding those events are always suspect. Audit trails, even at the most elementary levels are missing or nonexistent; briefings are wrong, selective or short facts or actions have been so delayed as to inconvenience the Council. Peel Hall is but one example.
I don’t not to say our Councillors are blameless. As you have said they have all allowed things to drift along for far too long and failed to use the mandate given when they are elected. But when one part of the team is intent on mischief, it is difficult for the other to function as it should. Our problem is to find out which part of the team is pulling its weight and who the make weights are. It will be difficult in the atmosphere of continual cover ups.

Again, from gleaning information from all the above comments I conclude that there is no excuse as far as I am concerned for the Councillors to be so ill informed, for so long, without a hint of collusion and certainly some culpable responsibility for the lack of communication between them and the officers. I note that you have stated several issues that you have identifies as Officer errors that should have in my opinion warranted some form of auditing or certainly some modicum amount of scrutiny. Am I to believe that the Council Members were so gullible to have been taken in by the so called inadequacies in the information that they were provided with in reports and briefings form public servants as you seem to have suggested? The whole Council needs to be investigated from top to bottom and see if it is now fit for purpose. Why is Mr. Broomhead not being called in to question because he also doesn’t seem to have done anything to rectify this and other issues? Surely he has some powers over the Council Members and the Officers as he is Council Chief Executive.

Richard65 wrote:
SAC, stop fishing, your clearly panicking and it shows.

You are so, so, wrong about me. I have not interest whatsoever in fishing and have absolutely no need to panic.

By the way the issue we are commenting on, is Peel Hall and the planning fiasco, as you seemed to have been side tracked for a brief moment.

http://www.facebook.
com/groups/127334547
418004/ wrote:
words words words all nothing but words.action is whats needed.the council needs to be shaken by its foundations,its there to serve its population not its members.

ste dodd

I agree with you Ste., well said. Lets see some action, and counteraction etc., etc. will also follow. I've no doubt about that.

@SAC, not side tracked at all, just curious as to why you are putting so much effort into being a one man apologist, on behalf of the council officers responsible for yet another scandal.

SAC_in_Warrington wrote:

http://www.facebook.

com/groups/127334547

418004/ wrote:
words words words all nothing but words.action is whats needed.the council needs to be shaken by its foundations,its there to serve its population not its members.

ste dodd

I agree with you Ste., well said. Lets see some action, and counteraction etc., etc. will also follow. I've no doubt about that.

That was directed at all concerned
.
give a politician enough rope and he will hang everyone else.

who will step forward and outline exactly what needs to be done and carry it out? who has the bottle to do what is necessary to save peel hall? ...............i doubt any of you live here around peel hall,so you wont be affected.so who cares,well we do and we are not happy.there are almost 900 hundred local people on my site reading everything on here general feelings are none of you are smelling of roses.

Ste

I think the rotten core of WBC needs to be of concern to everybody. People across Warrington have been touched by problems and I hope politicans are getting the message that things are out of control because they are doing nothing about it and haven't been for years.

Richard65 wrote:
@SAC, not side tracked at all, just curious as to why you are putting so much effort into being a one man apologist, on behalf of the council officers responsible for yet another scandal.

I believe that any action that has been commented on here and allegedly perpetrated by the officers would undoubtedly have been within sight and sound of a Council Member. If they, the Council Member(s) with the portfolio or the responsibility for the local planing team were doing the business that their role requires then they would have noticed the issues much sooner at the very least.

Again to clarify something for you Richard65. I have no connection with Warrington Borough Council other than being a Warrington Resident and I have no connection with the LPA or its members and officers.

grey_man wrote:
Ste

I think the rotten core of WBC needs to be of concern to everybody. People across Warrington have been touched by problems and I hope politicans are getting the message that things are out of control because they are doing nothing about it and haven't been for years.

i agree but i reiterate
who will step forward and outline exactly what needs to be done and carry it out? who has the bottle to do what is necessary to save peel hall? ..............i see no queue forming

http://www.facebook.
com/groups/127334547
418004/ wrote:

grey_man wrote:
Ste

I think the rotten core of WBC needs to be of concern to everybody. People across Warrington have been touched by problems and I hope politicans are getting the message that things are out of control because they are doing nothing about it and haven't been for years.

i agree but i reiterate
who will step forward and outline exactly what needs to be done and carry it out? who has the bottle to do what is necessary to save peel hall? ..............i see no queue forming

So far the Civic system you thought may have protected you has failed you.

Even the politicians that appear to support you are only, and in my opinion out to make some political gain for them selves, thus only using you and your team of volunteers to further their own political career. I think that your best strategy is to keep up your campaign as you are doing because you are applying pressure slowly but steadily. You will undoubtedly have ups and downs but persevere through them. You may actually prevent the whole development of Peel Hall and Radley Common or at the very least prevent the full scale development as planned and restrict it to a minimum. The councillors, I think are wolves in sheep clothing, or they are spys in your camp, and will be of no use to you efforts. I wish you well in your endeavours, my hope is that you achieve your aims with the people that are truthfully aiding and helping you.

YOUR CHOICE

I notice that over in Orford the ongoing battle to stop developers building houses in Peel Hall goes on and it’s getting hot between the Local Lib Dems and our Labour MP, not to mention the planning department and the developers fighting their corner. So much energy, time and money being used. Do we get to know the party politics behind the issue?

Elected councillors and Members of Parliament should put their communities, not party politics, first.

Important local and national issues should be put to binding local and national referendums and above all, councils and Members of Parliament should be there to serve their communities and work side by side with other councillors, not just spend the people’s money or play power games with each other.

Will the same councillors and Members of Parliament fighting against this development on behalf of the community also fight HS2 (High Speed Railway) on behalf of the local people opposing it through Warrington?

Will the community fighting this development also fight the plight of local people who will have HS2 running through their homes, their business, the graves of their loved ones, their landscape and their lives?

I pose a question. If we oppose this development where will Warrington Borough Council build new homes for the 29 million fellow Europeans from Bulgaria and Romania? These people who will legally be allowed to enter the UK from January 2014 will need a place to live, a school to educate their children, a hospital when they are ill or to meet their maternity needs. They will need access to jobs and benefits while they seek work. They will need the support of all front-line council services.

Local people should perhaps not oppose new housing developments if they support the fact that the UK is a fully paid up member of the EU and have to abide by the rules. The EU control over 75% of our laws.

On the other hand the local people have a choice to fight the unelected, undemocratic and unaccountable Commissioners of the EU, the same Commissioners that this Government and the previous Government have fully supported against the will of the British people signing away more and more powers.

Soon local communities will not have any say in where developments go and no local services when they collapse under the weight of uncontrolled immigration and budget cuts to sort out the previous Governments financial mess.

It’s YOUR COUNTRY, YOUR TOWN and YOUR CHOICE

Geoff Siddall

Thank you for your encouragement SAC_

i would like to point out we get no visible support from ANY politician on or off my page.like the matter being discussed on here everyone's too frightened to be seen to do the right thing and more concerned about furthering their careers.

i would rather fall down and fail and make a fool of myself than do nothing at all.

Great opportunity for the MP, Helen Jones, to call for resignations and show us how well-represented we are. Elections not too far away are they? I did not notice the same zeal for resignation when Councillor Vobe was suspended a short time ago. I wonder why.

Who actually owns this site?

When are the Local Planning Authority considering this proposed development?

If the date is known, then I urge every one with an interest in their local environment, their local wildlife and countryside and their local history to put their wait behind the campaign to save the Peel Hall site at Houghton Green / Orford wet grassland site and a home to several protected species, from any effort towards overdevelopment. The site in addition still requires a full archeological survey because of known historical facts that this valuable site may contain.

SAC_in_Warrington wrote:
Who actually owns this site?

When are the Local Planning Authority considering this proposed development?

If the date is known, then I urge every one with an interest in their local environment, their local wildlife and countryside and their local history to put their wait behind the campaign to save the Peel Hall site at Houghton Green / Orford wet grassland site and a home to several protected species, from any effort towards overdevelopment. The site in addition still requires a full archeological survey because of known historical facts that this valuable site may contain.

The planning application will be considered in full by the council's development management committee, in the normal way, on March 7 as previously planned. This will include councillors and members of the public being allowed to speak and reinforce their views on the proposal.

"The committee members will then vote as usual to determine if the planning

application should be refused and the decision of the committee will be presented to an independent planning inspector, probably through a public inquiry.

"The inspector will consider the case for the applicant and the case for the council and then decide whether to allow or dismiss the proposal. The inspector will deal with the matter in exactly the same way as if Satnam had lodged an appeal after the development management committee had made a decision."

as in Helen Jones staement

satnam own phase one where planning permission has been submitted for the the 150 houses as far as the football pitches they plan to put a road through at the back of the mill house and the playing fields on grassmere where they want to rebuild winwick football club they are owned by winwick parish or so we are lead to believe it would be good to know for sure

Laboursupporteraswas wrote:
Great opportunity for the MP, Helen Jones, to call for resignations and show us how well-represented we are. Elections not too far away are they? I did not notice the same zeal for resignation when Councillor Vobe was suspended a short time ago. I wonder why.

More to the point why was there a witch hunt against Cllr Vobe by Labour activists and others, after Cllr Patel had previously been suspended for as yet uneplained reasons. This needs to be aired publically if the Labour junta (as Nick T often calls them) is to have any credibility.

I left Warrington to live and work abroad about 15 years ago because I really couldn't stomach the way the country is generally being run down. This issue with the council and planning department fits perfectly into the British system of the people at the top doing whatever they want for their own gains and then inept or under funded departments making half hearted but useless attempts at stopping it. All of which is paid for by you, the ordinary folk.
The only way these things can ever be fought is by organising yourselves into a proper group, collecting petitions, making some noise at the council with the support and presence of the media and demanding that action must be taken.
The country I am now living in is by no means perfect but we have a system of federal government where most things have to have a referendum before any law etc. can be passed.
In a case like this you have to give up some of your free time, collect signatures and basically don't stand for it.
The council is elected by YOU, do something, otherwise you will always remain mushrooms. (kept in the dark and fed s**t).

" Who actually owns this site?"

http://www.telegraph
.co.uk/news/uknews/t
heroyalfamily/422916
1/Kolin-Dhillon-Soot
y-is-an-affectionate
-nickname-from-Princ
e-Charles.html

The long term plan is for around 1400 houses on the whole site, the 150 currently under consideration is just the first phase. Mill Lane will be the (unsuitable, imo) access road for the 150 houses. If the site is developed further, then the plan is for the access road to go through Ballater Drive playing fields (recently acquired by WBC from the Homes & Communities Agency).

I'm not aware that any of this land belongs to Winwick Parish council.

Billy Porter wrote:
" Who actually owns this site?"

http://www.telegraph

.co.uk/news/uknews/t

heroyalfamily/422916

1/Kolin-Dhillon-Soot

y-is-an-affectionate

-nickname-from-Princ

e-Charles.html

The long term plan is for around 1400 houses on the whole site, the 150 currently under consideration is just the first phase. Mill Lane will be the (unsuitable, imo) access road for the 150 houses. If the site is developed further, then the plan is for the access road to go through Ballater Drive playing fields (recently acquired by WBC from the Homes & Communities Agency).

I'm not aware that any of this land belongs to Winwick Parish council.

thank you billy

Those feeling reassured that the words being aired state our decision makers are against Peel Hall may wish to refer to the recent application in Field Lane Appleton, where it is a matter of record that this application 2012/20594 was a recommend decline when submitted, but following site visit and the developer applicant adding in an offer of £45,000 into a central pot, termed as a section 106 for these purposes and which is noted as being the only material change to the application, then resulted in the application being amended to a recommend accept decision and it was duly approved. This was on a much smaller scale and may not have affected as many people directly & I am sure the powers that be will offer various reasons why the cases are totally different etc…, but it does not necessarily make it less important or contentious for the many elderly people directly affected who understood the recommend decision was a decline seemingly until the developer applicant dug that bit deeper into their resources at an advanced stage.

Those of us who have lived here for most of our lives, learned a long time ago there is world of difference between what is officially announced by this Council - of whatever political colour - and what actually takes place. Keep them in the dark or guessing should be the town's motto.