Town would lose out if high speed rail did not go ahead

3:00pm Wednesday 19th September 2012 in News

Town would lose out if high speed rail did not go ahead Town would lose out if high speed rail did not go ahead

WARRINGTON would lose out if a new high speed rail network to the region did not go ahead.

A study by HS2 North West looking into the alternative to the new network proposed by anti HS2 group 51M has found the town would see a reduction in peak morning trains to London.

Under 51M’s proposals there would only be one train rather than two calling at Warrington to reach the capital before 9am.

There would also be an extra carriage added to trains but HS2 North West say it would cost £15million to redevelope Bank Quay Station to accommodate longer trains.

Chris Howe director of HS2 North West said: “It is feared that not only will north west towns be left out of any potential intercity capacity gains, but commuters will also suffer from delays as the network is upgraded to accommodate longer trains and more services further south, this before reliability issues begin to effect passengers.”

Susan Williams, director of the North West Rail campaign, said: “This report is very revealing as to just how many people would lose services up and down the country. Warrington and Wigan demonstrate large demand to London and to lose peak capacity would be terrible for their economies.”

Comments(22)

the dr who says...
6:01pm Wed 19 Sep 12

I dont think anyone is in the slightest bit interested in the rubbish spouted by people have a vested interest, Warrington should be more bothered about the CR@P roads that will eventually stop the town from total gridlock, nevermind how quickly we can get to london.

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Karlar says...
7:43pm Wed 19 Sep 12

A more reasonably priced railway system - and not the most expensive one in Europe - would be a good starting point for this debate. HS2 will be even more expensive for users and the tax payers who will ultimately have to fund it, than our already over priced system. Hence to claim the town would loose out if high speed rail did not go ahead is nonsense.

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grey_man says...
8:39am Thu 20 Sep 12

Not to mention the fact that HS2 won't even go to Warrington.

The single most important thing to know about this is that the business case for HS2 is based on an assumption that people do not work on trains, which is completely nonsense.

Even then it's represents a marginal saving on time (a matter of minutes between London and Birmingham), will cost everybody tens of billions even if it hits budget, will largely benefit London economically, won't happen for many years and is environmentally unsound.

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ChrisNorthWest says...
11:57am Fri 21 Sep 12

HS2 Ltd plan to introduce services to Warrington as soon as the first phase opens, boosting capacity and reducing the journey time. http://bit.ly/SHT4jY


The alternative, is to reduce Warrington's services in favor of those further south.

The point is, upgrades will not produce the capacity required. And let's not forget, the WCML serves local and regional services too, over utilisation of the WCML will impact on these, with the alternative completely blocking growth beyond 2030.

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51m alliance says...
11:58am Mon 24 Sep 12

Town would lose out if high speed rail DID go ahead

Warrington should be much more worried by the documentation recently unearthed on the HS2 Ltd website, following an FOI request - the April 2012 Demand and Appraisal Report (http://www.hs2.org.
uk/assets/x/85308) which shows NO High speed trains stopping at Warrington when Phase 2 of HS2 is completed (Figure 2.2) and NO London trains calling there on the existing West Coast Main Line either (table A3).

There is nothing in the 51m published documentation which remotely
justifies the assertion that "the alternative would see a reduction in peak morning trains to London". Peak period services would, as now, be adjusted to meet specific demands, and, if the demand is there, we would certainly expect that Warrington would keep its current level of morning peak service.

Councillor Martin Tett, Chairman of the 51m alliance said: “It's not the 51m alternative which Warrington should be worrying about, it's HS2 itself!”

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ChrisNorthWest says...
1:09pm Mon 24 Sep 12

A full copy of the report can now be found here, which clearly shows Warrington as loosing peak AM services. The alternative diagram already uses the maximum number of paths available so adding additional stops would be difficult. Therefore the claim is completely justifiable.

http://hs2northwest.
wordpress.com/2012/0
9/23/alternative-to-
hs2-would-leave-nort
h-west-worse-off/

As for HS2 not serving Warrington, there is no justification for this claim. The service patterns provided by HS2 Ltd which are no secret and are publicly available were used for modelling the business case only, and unlike the 51M alternative does not represent an optimised service pattern, with final services yet to be decided.

HS2 allows West Coast growth beyond 2026, were as the 51 "alternative" freezes growth beyond 2020 and Network Rail say this alternative will see trains crowded by 2030.

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the dr who says...
2:28pm Mon 24 Sep 12

ChrisNorthWest wrote:
A full copy of the report can now be found here, which clearly shows Warrington as loosing peak AM services. The alternative diagram already uses the maximum number of paths available so adding additional stops would be difficult. Therefore the claim is completely justifiable.

http://hs2northwest.

wordpress.com/2012/0

9/23/alternative-to-

hs2-would-leave-nort

h-west-worse-off/

As for HS2 not serving Warrington, there is no justification for this claim. The service patterns provided by HS2 Ltd which are no secret and are publicly available were used for modelling the business case only, and unlike the 51M alternative does not represent an optimised service pattern, with final services yet to be decided.

HS2 allows West Coast growth beyond 2026, were as the 51 "alternative" freezes growth beyond 2020 and Network Rail say this alternative will see trains crowded by 2030.
have you some vested interest in this going ahead you appear to an argument why everyone else is wrong.and you have the correct info are you employed by HS2

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Karlar says...
7:21pm Mon 24 Sep 12

"HS2 allows West Coast growth beyond 2026, were as the 51 "alternative" freezes growth beyond 2020 and Network Rail say this alternative will see trains crowded by 2030.” so says ChrisNorthWest. Those who travel regularly on our present overpriced railway system will tell you our trains are already overcrowded never mind waiting until until 2030 or until HS2 comes into being. HS2 is like the latest IPhone might be nice to have and impress the neighbours but it's overpriced. Also like most official estimates we get in this country that for HS2 will eventually well exceed the target figure and deliver less than expected.

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grey_man says...
7:57pm Mon 24 Sep 12

Chris is probably Chris Howe who, for reasons best known to himself or because he's paid by vested interests, has taken to misinforming people on the subject of HS2 without stating up front who he is.

He still has no answers to very basic questions such as why the business case is based on a lie about people not working on trains.

The idea that HS2 'serves' Warrington is disingenuous because it won't unless people from Warrington want to drive to Manchester to catch it there or take the standard train to Birmingham New Street and walk to the the new terminal.

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ChrisNorthWest says...
10:06pm Mon 24 Sep 12

You simply have no evidence for your vested interest claim and frankly I find the assertion abhorrent. I know a great deal about HS2 because I have studied it in great deal. I began campaigning for HS2 over 2 years ago in my spare time with no pay. So I'd thank you to appologise or find evidence of vested interest for the above claim.

As for trains being full now, 51M are proposing reducing peak AM services and providing only 1 additional carriage as an alternative to HS2. I'm really not sure why any one from Warrington or the North West would defend this in favor of HS2.

Passengers from Warrington will be able to board trains as soon as 2026, not 2030. And will not have to travel to Manchester to do so.

I am not desperate to promote HS2, I simply wish that people would have an open and honest debate on the subject rather than allowing bias to overrule truth.

51M is a self serving anti HS2 action group made up of and funded by Southern councils opposing the route, it does not have the interests of the North West in mind, this has been proven by the release of the report into the only alternative they have proposed.

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Karlar says...
10:52pm Mon 24 Sep 12

Chris whoever you are - I too simply wish that people would have an open and honest debate on the subject of rail travel per se rather than allowing bias to overrule truth. As I said in an earlier posting this debate needs to start at the tangible beginning - not at some hypothetical point about the supposed benefits of a train which has yet to put in an appearance. At present we have the most expensive rail service in Europe - and probably the worst as far as true time keeping is concerned. HS2 is not going to improve the situation on either count. Most likely it will increase some aspects of an already exorbitant rail network. If we don't address the basic problem of our ecessive costs per passenger mile and improve time keeping, the supposed benefits of HS2 will be meaningless for Joe Public and he's the chap underwriting the lot.

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grey_man says...
11:43pm Mon 24 Sep 12

Chris

The fact is that you're very reluctant to post on these threads without first announcing that you have spent three years misinforming people about HS2 and have even set up a supposedly non-profit organisation to do so for which you are the 'commercial director'. The word 'commercial' seems to be a giveaway. And if you're a director, does that mean it's a limited company?

Apart from that, if you were open instead of posting as 'ChrisNorthWest' out of the blue then people wouldn't be suspicious. But you always do. Just be honest about who you are.

Anyway. Here's your big chance. A simple question. Do people work on trains? The business case for HS2 is based on the fact they don't so if they do, the entire case falls apart. Seeing as you've spent so long researching this, where's your evidence that nobody works on trains?

Off you go.

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grey_man says...
11:47pm Mon 24 Sep 12

Oh. And by the way. Your assertion that people will not have to travel to Manchester to board a HS2 train is not exactly true is it? This is a London to Birmingham service that may go to Manchester in the future. Your arguments for the people of this town are based on the idea that we will have some sort of knock-on benefit that isn't entirely clear.

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Karlar says...
11:36am Tue 25 Sep 12

He's probably stuck on some windswept platform waiting for his delayed train.

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ChrisNorthWest says...
11:51am Tue 25 Sep 12

If you do not want to know the truth about what southern councils are proposing as an alternative, which clearly demonstrates Warrington will lose out then that is your prerogative.

But do not bring into question my interest, which has no bearing on the facts.

As of 2026, passengers from Warrington will be able to board HS2 trains from Bank Quay to London, argue all you want, it's all there in HS2 Ltd document, which if you bother to read you would know.

The simple fact is, gray_man, you have chosen to single myself out rather and studying the details of HS2, you make wild claims about a person, rather than bothering to do any research about the subject matter.

Now what part of Warrington would lose out with the alternative proposed and Warrington will see HS2 services from 2026 do you not understand?

Or, is the case that you have yourself some interest in this no going ahead, holiday retreat or family in the Chilterns perhaps? Your vicious attacks against some who has the audacity to support HS2 that will benefit Warrington goes far beyond simply disagreeing with the plans for HS2.

If you want to hide behind personal attacks rather than debating HS2, that is fine, but please do not try to pretend that you have no interest in this or that you have bothered to study the proposal.

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grey_man says...
12:16pm Tue 25 Sep 12

It's not a personal attack. And I have done my research which is how I know that the business case for HS2 only works if you assume people don't do any work on trains. Once you include the fact that they do, it does not offer value for money. I can punch a hole in the entire business case with the one question you won't answer: do people work on trains? It all unravels with the one word answer to that question.

My view is therefore that this scheme is being pushed through by a Government open to lobbying from vested interests in the construction and engineering sectors.

My reading into this is also how I know that this train is not at the moment coming to Warrington. You might like it to, but at the moment it's a train that serves Birmingham and London. I'm also aware of the troubles that have beset the planning of this line and you trying to dress up a wishlist as fact won't convince me.

I also know that the environmental benefits are questioned by all of the major environmental groups without a vested interest in the scheme.

I also know that the major economic beneficiary will be London.

So I do know what it's all about. And I also know that some of us are wary of people like yourself who post without first declaring who they are, especially when the message they try to put across is so closely aligned to certain vested interests.

Perhaps you could take this opportunity to clarify the nature of HS2 North West as a business, your role and how it is funded.

As for me, I run a small business in Warrington and travel to London most weeks with work. So I stand to gain from this scheme if what you claim is true. But it isn't. So you can forget your paranoid delusions about my motives. They're very straightforward - unlike yours.

Finally, I have no connection with the local protest groups in southern England. My concerns are as a taxpayer and as someone who uses the train. Something which I note does not apply to you.

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grey_man says...
12:21pm Tue 25 Sep 12

PS With regard to the idea of cutting 20 minutes off what can for many people be a very productive time spent working at a cost of tens of billions of pounds, it reminds me of this:

http://www.ted.com/t
alks/rory_sutherland
_sweat_the_small_stu
ff.html

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ChrisNorthWest says...
12:42pm Tue 25 Sep 12

So it boils down to, you are allowed to opposed something without a vested interest, but woe betide anyone who dares to support a government project.

I will not justify myself to you or your "paranoid delusions". Other than to say I have no vested interest in HS2 going ahead, I never have and your assertion is a lie based on little evidence.

I posted to ensure that the truth is heard. Whether or not you want to hear it is up to you.

HS2 Ltd propose from the outset serving Warrington from day 1, with much needed capacity! it's not just about cutting 30 minutes of off the journey

(Appendix B: Illustration of peak hour services)
http://webarchive.na
tionalarchives.gov.u
k/20110131042819/htt
p:/www.dft.gov.uk/pg
r/rail/pi/highspeedr
ail/hs2ltd/technical
appendix/pdf/report.
pdf

The 51M alternative would negatively effect Warrington with very limited capacity gains, just 1 more carriage and a proposed loss of peak AM services.

http://hs2northwest.
files.wordpress.com/
2012/09/studying-the
-effects-the-51m-e28
09coptimised-alterna
tivee2809d-would-hav
e-on-the-west-coast-
corridor.pdf

This is what is up for debate and here is where I rest my case.

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grey_man says...
12:50pm Tue 25 Sep 12

Chris

They don't even know the route yet. Check today's news.

And answer my questions please. Should be easy with such a powerful case.

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grey_man says...
12:53pm Tue 25 Sep 12

Oh, and Chris? I've never lied about you. I just think you should clarify the nature of your organisation, your role and its funding.

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kingsnewclothes says...
10:02pm Thu 27 Sep 12

THIRTY SEVEN BILLION POUNDS. That's the official cost of HS2. We have a crisis in social care, massive cuts to police budgets , massive ( but not quite so well publicised ) cuts to fire service budgets. Defence cut backs. Over the next 2 to 3 years you will hear an awful lot about the financial troubles of the NHS. Now the politicians tell us they will have to find even more savings through the next parliament. On the railways we have large tracts of the network that aren't even electrified. And Chris Howe insists we should spend £ 37 bn on a scheme that will benefit a relatively small number of business travellers who will be able to get up a bit later in the morning. What planet does he think he is on ?.

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the dr who says...
10:09pm Thu 27 Sep 12

kingsnewclothes wrote:
THIRTY SEVEN BILLION POUNDS. That's the official cost of HS2. We have a crisis in social care, massive cuts to police budgets , massive ( but not quite so well publicised ) cuts to fire service budgets. Defence cut backs. Over the next 2 to 3 years you will hear an awful lot about the financial troubles of the NHS. Now the politicians tell us they will have to find even more savings through the next parliament. On the railways we have large tracts of the network that aren't even electrified. And Chris Howe insists we should spend £ 37 bn on a scheme that will benefit a relatively small number of business travellers who will be able to get up a bit later in the morning. What planet does he think he is on ?.
i think that about sums up the stupid idea, its people who will benifit financialy from the scheme and i dont mean the travellers, its a big buisness scam that will do nothing exept make millionairs of the people who do the work, we can and will manage without it.

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