HS2 line to come through Warrington (From Warrington Guardian)

So it's not coming to Warrington in other words. But we can at least drive somewhere nearby to wave it past on its way somewhere else.

For anybody who doesn't know, HS2 is going to cost a minimum of £36 billion, is based on a flawed business case that has had holes punched in it repeatedly, is the darling of construction companies who by entire coincidence donate money to party political funds.

And it's not coming to Warrington.

Don't the current Virgin trains come to Crewe (and beyond) already...
Aren't they already fast...I believe Runcorn to London in less than 2 hours...(though may be wrong by a minute or two)
Do we need it to be that much faster...?
Is this train going to do it less than an hour..?
I would suggest "no"....
So do we really need to spend all that money...?
"no"

Estimated cost £36 billion, and we are already nationally skint. Tax revenues from the temporary labour force involved in its construction will not generate any wealth for this country. Based upon countless previous government rose tinted estimates of project costings HS2 will actually cost at least £72 billion and be at least 15 years late. There is no meaningful business case for this white elephant.

From the BBC news page:
"The Department for Transport said that HS2 phase two would virtually halve journey times between Birmingham and Manchester - to 41 minutes - and between London and Manchester from two hours and eight minutes to one hour and eight minutes."
Ok, so just over 1 hour from just over 2 hours...
Again, is that hour worth £36billion (which is sure to rise as the project gets underway...!)

Not only the cost and the white elephant, what about the complete loss of the Culceth Linear Park. The line runs less than 20 m from Holcroft Moss and 500m from Risley Moss as well as passing straight through the soon to designated Silver Lane site. The exceptional habitat of Franks farm will all loose out. SO from a habitat and environmental view it will be trouble for a lot of our prime wildlife sites on the east of the borough.

The whole point of HS2 is to free up capacity on the existing lines.

Yes some disruption will occur, but it did when the motorways were built and look how they have expanded our spheres of daily life (some will say not for the better, some won't remember).

NIMBYism will always exist, wait until the proposals for replacing Fiddlers Ferry after EU directives in 2015 make burning coal there no cost effective with a new nuclear power station in the late 2020s (bad for Penketh, good for all the nuclear companies on Brichwood park).

(Electric trains need electric power, might as well put the baseload station near one of the lines - Network Rail are already the biggest user of the EdF nuclear power in the UK).

It's just Tory spin! This will not benefit the North in general at all only Manchester!!

Stan Tonks wrote:
The whole point of HS2 is to free up capacity on the existing lines.

Yes some disruption will occur, but it did when the motorways were built and look how they have expanded our spheres of daily life (some will say not for the better, some won't remember).

NIMBYism will always exist, wait until the proposals for replacing Fiddlers Ferry after EU directives in 2015 make burning coal there no cost effective with a new nuclear power station in the late 2020s (bad for Penketh, good for all the nuclear companies on Brichwood park).

(Electric trains need electric power, might as well put the baseload station near one of the lines - Network Rail are already the biggest user of the EdF nuclear power in the UK).

And some of that nuclear power comes from French reactors, which is also subsidised to put on parity with our coal/gas fired power stations.
As for freeing up capacity on the existing lines, that too is misleading.There is ample under utilzed capacity on the existing rail network. All that is required is more and modern rolling stock.

Really not happy about this. As a resident of Culcheth, and like many others, use the Linear Park on a daily basis, we will have nowhere else to walk unless its the streets! I see wildlife here on a daily basis and have made many friends from other walkers! Have the govt just looked and thought- oh it used to be a railway line, lets use it again, without researching the work that WBC and volunteers have put into the park? Even now, a significant sum of money is being spent (much of it raised by fundraising done by volunteers) to improve the park's drainage. Has this been done for nothing?

Stan Tonks wrote:
The whole point of HS2 is to free up capacity on the existing lines. Yes some disruption will occur, but it did when the motorways were built and look how they have expanded our spheres of daily life (some will say not for the better, some won't remember). NIMBYism will always exist, wait until the proposals for replacing Fiddlers Ferry after EU directives in 2015 make burning coal there no cost effective with a new nuclear power station in the late 2020s (bad for Penketh, good for all the nuclear companies on Brichwood park). (Electric trains need electric power, might as well put the baseload station near one of the lines - Network Rail are already the biggest user of the EdF nuclear power in the UK).

how does the HS2 free up capacity on existing lines....?

if virgin are still running the West coast mainland when HS2 is built they are simply going to reduce the frequency of their existing trains if it coincides with similar timed trains on the high speed network.

It certainly wont free up capacity on the 19 minute joke trains too and from manchester and Warrington. £9 quid and never a seat to be had.....

We dont do trains particularly well in this country why do we think this can be pulled off.

the company I work for are actively encouraging all levels of staff to Work from Home for on average 2 days a week....it makes sense...other companies will do likewise and the need for travel will be less.....

and if your company is prudent with its finances and you go to sign off travel tickets which ones will get approved the one for twice the price(guessing) but an hour quicker or the cheaper one hour slower ticket.....

still it'll keep plenty of Europeans in work......

I would like to see how the £36 billion cost has been calculated. It is worth noting that in 2005 the 2012 Olympics were estimated to cost £2.4 billion, in 2007 that estimate was upped to £9.3 billion, it is currently being suggested that the true cost was £12 billion and some commentators are even saying that that figure is well short of the true figure.

Large State projects have a habit of costing far more than originally estimated, so great care needs to be taken with costings as a half finished railway will be no use at all.

Interestingly there has been no indication as to how much it will cost to use HS2, will it be greatly more that the current service, will the cost of the current service be greatly increased so that HS2 doesn't look so expensive, or might it be that HS2 will cost little more than the current service. In the context of Warrington, with the current service to London taking less than 2 hours, why would I want to take a train to an HS2 station and change, what time saving, if any, would it offer me, and at what cost to my ticket. Might it be that if and when HS2 is running, the current service will be greatly scaled back, so that the choice of journey is very limited.

HS2 might be the most fantastic investment for our country, but we do need to be very sure of the calculations.

West Coast is already at capacity - when open access and freight operators apply for new paths there are virtually none available. The problem on the west coast (I believe from Rail Magazine) is that the trains can go faster and tilt but because the infrastructure is more constrained (bends) and has lower signalling distance the amount of trains you can run is finite and the line will be full in a few years. I too detest being on full Virgin trains already full of people sat down working away when I get on at Warrington to travel a couple of stops down to Crewe. What HS2 will do if you read the consultant engineer report is take some traffic (be it trains or in effect the people that would be on trains) off WCML to be replaced with new traffic and trains. So yes it'll probably be as crowded again as it is now bit they'll also be plan B. A bit like having the M62 AND the West Lancs to go Mancs - Liverpool.

I'm not pro or anti train by the way but I am pro infrastructure and the more major projects near Warrington will help the town grow. Imagine how many jobs a new power station will bring, both during development and for operators.

Look how the motorways helped the new town growth - without them Warrington would still be a quiet backwater being missed out by people on their ways to the 'Cities' of Manchester and Liverpool.

Someone does have to suffer, we used to live in Culceth and nearly bought a house there ten years ago next to the Linear Park - only when our searches revealed that BR / Network Fail had never fully rescinded the right to rebuild a line on the old Linear Park did we start to think twice - and a bit more digging showed the proposals to link the proposed freight yard at Glazebury to Lowton re-opening the line existed help make the decision to pull out easier. Instead I bought a house in a nice quiet are next to a lovely old historic building which decayed through lack of investment and eventually got knocked down and built into flats. Tough luck, yes I accepted it though as while I own my house and my freehold, I don't own or have a right to a view and I don't own the neighbors land or that the council built the development on. Just the luck of the draw?

Infrastructure investment is what the UK needs, or if you disagree with my opinion on that you agree instead to say my name one hundred times (with an inserted word of your choice) before you blame traffic for the next jam you are sat in.

Stan Tonks wrote:
West Coast is already at capacity - when open access and freight operators apply for new paths there are virtually none available. The problem on the west coast (I believe from Rail Magazine) is that the trains can go faster and tilt but because the infrastructure is more constrained (bends) and has lower signalling distance the amount of trains you can run is finite and the line will be full in a few years. I too detest being on full Virgin trains already full of people sat down working away when I get on at Warrington to travel a couple of stops down to Crewe. What HS2 will do if you read the consultant engineer report is take some traffic (be it trains or in effect the people that would be on trains) off WCML to be replaced with new traffic and trains. So yes it'll probably be as crowded again as it is now bit they'll also be plan B. A bit like having the M62 AND the West Lancs to go Mancs - Liverpool.

I'm not pro or anti train by the way but I am pro infrastructure and the more major projects near Warrington will help the town grow. Imagine how many jobs a new power station will bring, both during development and for operators.

Look how the motorways helped the new town growth - without them Warrington would still be a quiet backwater being missed out by people on their ways to the 'Cities' of Manchester and Liverpool.

Someone does have to suffer, we used to live in Culceth and nearly bought a house there ten years ago next to the Linear Park - only when our searches revealed that BR / Network Fail had never fully rescinded the right to rebuild a line on the old Linear Park did we start to think twice - and a bit more digging showed the proposals to link the proposed freight yard at Glazebury to Lowton re-opening the line existed help make the decision to pull out easier. Instead I bought a house in a nice quiet are next to a lovely old historic building which decayed through lack of investment and eventually got knocked down and built into flats. Tough luck, yes I accepted it though as while I own my house and my freehold, I don't own or have a right to a view and I don't own the neighbors land or that the council built the development on. Just the luck of the draw?

Infrastructure investment is what the UK needs, or if you disagree with my opinion on that you agree instead to say my name one hundred times (with an inserted word of your choice) before you blame traffic for the next jam you are sat in.

Culcheth Linear Park is our only park for miles. This will mean many people having to use cars to find parkland to walk in- not environmentally friendly. It is home to a lot of wildlife and many locals use it daily. What I don't understand is why the route is going through this area at all, as it's not anywhere near the most direct route between Birmingham and Manchester!

Paul Kennedy said "HS2 might be the most fantastic investment for our country, but we do need to be very sure of the calculations." Emphatically agree. Not the least of which is, how are we already a nation on its financial uppers, going to be able to afford to spend conservatively (no pun intended) at least £72 billion (it will inevitably be much more) on one infrastructure project, when the existing infrastructures all along the route and the proposed termini for HS2 are antiquated and in need of an urgent upgrade now. It's also worth stating if and when HS2 is only part complete we as a nation will have a HS train equivalent to that which Japan had in the late 1970s. Interestingly, the HS2 proposals don't envisage an immediate link to Heathrow. So there will be no means of speedily transferring snow bound passengers at Heathrow to Manchester or vice versa when our usual winter airport shutdowns cause chaos and when every other winter affected major airport is operating virtually as normal.

grey_man wrote:
So it's not coming to Warrington in other words. But we can at least drive somewhere nearby to wave it past on its way somewhere else.

For anybody who doesn't know, HS2 is going to cost a minimum of £36 billion, is based on a flawed business case that has had holes punched in it repeatedly, is the darling of construction companies who by entire coincidence donate money to party political funds.

And it's not coming to Warrington.

The interest we pay each year which is dead money on the £170Billion debt Labour left us is £53Billion. Makes you think doesn't it when your talking about cost?

Saysitasitis says...
1:24pm Fri 25 Jan 13

I 'canter' understand some people.
Was it all 'hands' to the pumps?
As long as it is 'stable' now, that's the 'mane' thing... :-)”

Saysitasitis, Interesting that you can make factual, reasoned comments on this story and yet you leave stupid, jokey comments on the story of the horse trapped by workmen on the proposed David Wilson homes site which is now a horses pasture

montblanc wrote:
Saysitasitis says...
1:24pm Fri 25 Jan 13

I 'canter' understand some people.
Was it all 'hands' to the pumps?
As long as it is 'stable' now, that's the 'mane' thing... :-)”

Saysitasitis, Interesting that you can make factual, reasoned comments on this story and yet you leave stupid, jokey comments on the story of the horse trapped by workmen on the proposed David Wilson homes site which is now a horses pasture

You're right....
But......this is a train....and....

A horse is a horse, of course, of course....

Ney.... :-)

tinkerb wrote:

Stan Tonks wrote:
West Coast is already at capacity - when open access and freight operators apply for new paths there are virtually none available. The problem on the west coast (I believe from Rail Magazine) is that the trains can go faster and tilt but because the infrastructure is more constrained (bends) and has lower signalling distance the amount of trains you can run is finite and the line will be full in a few years. I too detest being on full Virgin trains already full of people sat down working away when I get on at Warrington to travel a couple of stops down to Crewe. What HS2 will do if you read the consultant engineer report is take some traffic (be it trains or in effect the people that would be on trains) off WCML to be replaced with new traffic and trains. So yes it'll probably be as crowded again as it is now bit they'll also be plan B. A bit like having the M62 AND the West Lancs to go Mancs - Liverpool.

I'm not pro or anti train by the way but I am pro infrastructure and the more major projects near Warrington will help the town grow. Imagine how many jobs a new power station will bring, both during development and for operators.

Look how the motorways helped the new town growth - without them Warrington would still be a quiet backwater being missed out by people on their ways to the 'Cities' of Manchester and Liverpool.

Someone does have to suffer, we used to live in Culceth and nearly bought a house there ten years ago next to the Linear Park - only when our searches revealed that BR / Network Fail had never fully rescinded the right to rebuild a line on the old Linear Park did we start to think twice - and a bit more digging showed the proposals to link the proposed freight yard at Glazebury to Lowton re-opening the line existed help make the decision to pull out easier. Instead I bought a house in a nice quiet are next to a lovely old historic building which decayed through lack of investment and eventually got knocked down and built into flats. Tough luck, yes I accepted it though as while I own my house and my freehold, I don't own or have a right to a view and I don't own the neighbors land or that the council built the development on. Just the luck of the draw?

Infrastructure investment is what the UK needs, or if you disagree with my opinion on that you agree instead to say my name one hundred times (with an inserted word of your choice) before you blame traffic for the next jam you are sat in.

Culcheth Linear Park is our only park for miles. This will mean many people having to use cars to find parkland to walk in- not environmentally friendly. It is home to a lot of wildlife and many locals use it daily. What I don't understand is why the route is going through this area at all, as it's not anywhere near the most direct route between Birmingham and Manchester!

Never mind quality of life. Never mind the preservation of one of the few natural nature habitats we've got left in Warrington. Never mind that this town is already a sprawling mass of urbanised industry, choked with pollution. It's all about feeding the machine, infrastructure, economy, work... All so we can feed an industrial civilisation that's on the verge of collapse.

HS2 is not an investment because it will cost more than it will yield in economic benefits. For it to be approved it had to satisfy a Return on Investment ratio. The only way the Government was able to achieve this ration was to make two incorrect assumptions: firstly that each person using the train earned an average of £70,000 per year, secondly that none of them did any work while on the train (this is essentially a business service). Only by cooking up these figures was it able to make a business case.

Stan Tonks keeps repeating another standard line trotted out by the many lobbyists who have argued for this project - that there is no spare capacity on the WCML. In fact there is.

There is ample spare capacity on the WCML to ensure most passengers have seats for the duration of their journeys; what a needed are more new carriages with seats. The upgrade of the WCML was a botched job and a very badly botched one at that. When it was upgraded with fanfares all round about tilting trains and increased speeds, the opportunity to flatten the horizontal radii of curves, new signalling etc to achieve those objectives was missed. Those costs were considerably less than those estimated for HS2. The new signalling system for the WCML upgrade had to be ripped and reinstalled. The upgrade contract exceeded both the project programme and estimated cost. If the WCML had been done properly, by now we could have had a reasonably quick efficient comfortable rail service serving northwest towns and cities, including Warrington. Instead we have a make do and mend or take it or leave it system and service, which has been the hallmark of our railway system for decades. Don’t kid yourselves if and when HS2 is up and running it will all change. Take a look at HS1, running at less than a third passenger capacity and higher fares on local networks to pay for the new but poorly used infrastructure, which most people are unable to use for travelling to and from work. The business case and strategy for HS2 and HS1 is flawed.

Culcheth Linear Park is our only park for miles. This will mean many people having to use cars to find parkland to walk in- not environmentally friendly. It is home to a lot of wildlife and many locals use it daily. What I don't understand is why the route is going through this area at all, as it's not anywhere near the most direct route between Birmingham and Manchester!

Stop complaining! Did you bother to check when you bought your property whether anyone reserved the right to build on the old railway line? Probably not.

£36bn is a lot of money. But it suits the big wigs down south.

As eluded to by another poster, surely we would be better served investing some more money in to the current network instead.

I used to travel to work in Manchester every day, 8:13 morning train and 17:11 evening train back. Barely ever got a seat (not that it bothers too much), but there were times when the trains were leaving people behind because they were that cramped. Sometimes on the way home the train would come with 6 carriages, some days with 3. You can imagine how jam-packed it was with 3.

How hard would it be to secure another couple of carriages to whack on the busier trains.

UKIP
THE ONLY PARTY OPPOSING HS2

While all other parties are rallying around this £34 billion waste of time, UKIP wants to make clear the other, less heard, side of the argument about HS2.

UKIP Leader Nigel Farage said: “The Government may talk about regeneration and the importance of linking cities in order to create jobs outside London, but high speed rail projects elsewhere have shown that in actual fact it simply leads to more people migrating to the capital city to work, rather than vice versa. It will extend the commuter belt to London beyond Birmingham.

“Yet the cost will be more than £1,000 per household. Many people will never even benefit from High Speed railway and there are lots of people who will actually be blighted by it. People will find homes devalued while swathes of the countryside will be destroyed for no good reason. Many people will simply not be able to afford the fares. The project lines the pockets of the construction industry.

“HS2 will not boost economies in the North. Far from it. It is a loss making scheme. Instead the UK should invest that massive amount of money in developing better infrastructure, including transport between and within towns and cities. This is where the real potential for development lies.

“The UK is supposedly taking painful austerity measures with huge cuts to services and infrastructure, yet the Government is adamant on spending £34 billion on a service that will only benefit the richest in society.

“There has been a lot of spin and a lot of propaganda about HS2. But I am sure if people knew the facts, they would most certainly not be in support.”

SUPPORT UKIP

tinkerb wrote:
Really not happy about this. As a resident of Culcheth, and like many others, use the Linear Park on a daily basis, we will have nowhere else to walk unless its the streets! I see wildlife here on a daily basis and have made many friends from other walkers! Have the govt just looked and thought- oh it used to be a railway line, lets use it again, without researching the work that WBC and volunteers have put into the park? Even now, a significant sum of money is being spent (much of it raised by fundraising done by volunteers) to improve the park's drainage. Has this been done for nothing?

I personally think that It is very sensible to reuse an old railway line and bring it back into use. Additionally the current land owner will benefit from a large cash sum, and probably at the current market value.
I think that you can always use some of the many public footpaths and bridle-ways in your, predominantly rural area. I have observed that there is plenty of room for the wildlife in your neighbourhood, and they will surely and without any hesitation or intervention relocate themselves naturally into their favoured habitat.

Judging by this morning's headlines it seems the TGV - France's high speed train brought into service in 1981-1982 (well before the financial crisis) has done little for the economy of that now "bankcrupt" nation.

Karlar wrote:
Judging by this morning's headlines it seems the TGV - France's high speed train brought into service in 1981-1982 (well before the financial crisis) has done little for the economy of that now "bankcrupt" nation.

Are you able to state the source of your information?

Nice to see lots of reasoned argument here. I still remain firmly in the good for Warrington good for NW camp (and lets face it many of us will probably move in and out of Warrington area over our lives).

I'd also support the finishing of the four cross and up-down roads that should have been built as part of the Warrington New town plan or replacement of Fiddlers ferry or making the M6 have higher capacity so as I said I'm pro infrastructure. Business case figures can be manipulated to suit and you'll see the likes of Greengage 21 and StopHS2 using almost the same arguments and figures to get different conclusions. £70,000 p.a. for the man on the train. Is that now, in today's money or in 2033? Allowing for inflation (last 20 years extrapolated forwards) that'll be around the average wage.

Unfair that people in Culcheth obviously haven't had notice prior to the consultation. There's still plenty of bridleways and the likes of Pennington Flash not too far away. Remember, the railway through linear park was there before the houses, caveat emptor (and remember I personalty lost money on surveys / searches nearly buying a house there so I should bear a grudge against BR / Network Rail / HS2 but don't). HS2, London Airport expansion and broadband for all all the drivers to improve the economy and put the Great back into Great Britian.

However, being realistic, Culcheth doesn't has many historical or architectural buildings of note and of course isn't in a Tory constituency (have to put that one in for the conspiracy theorists who'll forget the fact that an existing railway right of way is being used here, across the necessary flat geography for these schemes). Yes shame people have found out only by press in the last couple of days but that is progress for the nation. Only 227 homes in total to be knocked down (The Times today) Culcheth being hit hard as it is the 3rd / 4th most demolitions outside Manchester Centre. However, if you can afford a house in Culcheth you can afford to move around and you'll get a good deal (house market value + 25 - 50% was reported for HS2 phase 1 as an average under the compensation scheme - see HS2 phase 1 website).

One fact people need to check is the myth that WCML is at capacity. There seems to be a simple misunderstanding by the common man that longer trains = more capacity. It is the gap between trains that limits (and I gave a hint where to get that info - Rail Magazine - which is both pro and anti HS2 and what the problem was in an early post). If anyone can state how we can get more capacity on WCML - and don't say longer trains - I'll wash their car for free. Otherwise I think you're just believing press claptrap (this is a vested interest- i work in Operational Planning so know what the FACTs are). Has anyone that Qs that point ever noticed how long freight trains are, could it be the line will be at capacity because we can shift no more freight and passengers? Remember we need our goods delivering somehow. Or shall we have more lorries on the road? Think of the children being crushed by lorries in their prams and poor motorists spending days on Thellwall in smog just so goods can get to CPS store by road?

I'd much rather see HS2 built at disruption to 10,000 houses (a fraction of the 22 million households in the UK) than the money spent on Trident replacement, but if we're not doing HS2 might as well do that, give us in Warrington, Barrow, Glasgow and other NW towns other work instead. Submarines and missiles don't design and build themselves you know, as the residents of Atmoic village (nickname in the 1950s when the infant nuclear industry staff that lived in the village) will well know.

Oh, and another great fact in the Times today. Virtually all Victorian projects (railways - remember we invented them - one of the earliest being across Chat Moss), sewers, infrastructure, canals (MSC?) would fail current return on investment criteria. So did the M25 in the 1970s yet fortunately the Treasury saw there was a greater need and still built it - look how much that helped growth / progress / travel past the vestiges of London.

The cost of HS2 per year will be about 2 billion, which to put it into context is less than UK housholds spend on cat and dog food per year (petfood manufacturers trade association figures) The ukip letter shows how they want a return to the days when the people who owned the country ran it for their own benefit. The tories cry it takes more votes to elect a tory mp but campaigned against proportion representation.
Stan Monks is generally correct, it is a shame the newspaper will fail on thursday to give people a clear picture and that the letter pages will be filled with the sort of bigotted ill informed views shown on this page

I don't think people are being either bigoted or ill informed. The fact is that there is no business case for this system, although some people will benefit. I also don't think people are being anti-railway or anti-investment.

It strikes me this has been a reasoned discussion and it's a shame somebody has had to come on and start making unfounded accusations in this way.

grey_man wrote:
I don't think people are being either bigoted or ill informed. The fact is that there is no business case for this system, although some people will benefit. I also don't think people are being anti-railway or anti-investment.

It strikes me this has been a reasoned discussion and it's a shame somebody has had to come on and start making unfounded accusations in this way.

Well stated. Here here! I say.

Just to be clear - it doesn't use the route of the Linear Park at Culcheth (the radius of curve of the old railway is too tight) but it does sever it at Wigshaw Lane (in a cutting, like the old line, under Wigshaw Lane). It does seem to require a lot of the Taylor Business Park to be demolished.
https://www.gov.uk/g
overnment/uploads/sy
stem/uploads/attachm
ent_data/file/69070/
hs2-msg-mr0-zz-dr-rt
-52102.pdf

Perhaps they could sling a toll-free road under their bridge where it crosses tne Ship Canal at Warburton!

Do you live in the Culcheth or Glazebrook area where the proposed railway line is going through?

What are your views?

ukipactiongroup@sky.
com

Stan Tonks wrote:
Oh, and another great fact in the Times today. Virtually all Victorian projects (railways - remember we invented them - one of the earliest being across Chat Moss), sewers, infrastructure, canals (MSC?) would fail current return on investment criteria. So did the M25 in the 1970s yet fortunately the Treasury saw there was a greater need and still built it - look how much that helped growth / progress / travel past the vestiges of London.

The Victorians who built the original railways had no idea of whether, ultimately, they were a good idea or not, and the promoters of today’s high speed lines are no different, they too are relying on guesswork to justify their confidence in the project. The ultimate decision will not be based on a sensible and realistic consideration of methodology, it will be a political one.

This is a political project because the economics do not stack up. It's as simple as that. Unless somebody can come on here and prove that the people who use this train will be on an average £70k a year and that nobody works on trains so saving them 40 minutes makes sense.

I understand some people will benefit and it will create jobs but to be honest you could spend £36 billion doing up Warrington and that would create thousands of jobs too. Doesn't make it worthwhile.

For a fraction of this cost they could have looked at a variety of other infrastructure projects, including the country's technological infrastructure but that would have meant missing out on the opportunity to have a grand project to your name and - to be cynical - the eternal gratitude of engineering and contracting firms who will give your political party money every year and offer you a nice executive directorship in a few years.

Stan Tonks said “One fact people need to check is the myth that WCML is at capacity. There seems to be a simple misunderstanding by the common man that longer trains = more capacity. It is the gap between trains that limits (and I gave a hint where to get that info - Rail Magazine - which is both pro and anti HS2 and what the problem was in an early post). If anyone can state how we can get more capacity on WCML - and don't say longer trains - I'll wash their car for free.”

I joke and mean no offence when I say I don’t want to take up the offer of car washing Stan. But when the WCML upgrade was being evaluated, realigning some sections of track to smoothen the horizontal curves to create something like the HS2 track layout was considered and rejected. That solution would have been considerably less costly and had a better environmental outcome than the HS2 proposal. HS2 proponents of have suddenly stopped harping on about its environmental credentials. Had the realignment of WCML been adopted its trains would have been able to operate at near their maximum speed, instead of the reduced one at which they are now forced to operate. A straighter alignment to the WCML would also have been able to accommodate longer and more frequent trains; of the frequency used in the HSC’s business case. HSC’s BCR is based upon so many unsustainable imponderables that you need to use Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle to make any sense of it. For example, no high speed train in the world schedules more than 14 trains an hour, but HS2 is based on 18. The HS2 equation uses an operating speed of 250 mph whereas continental HS trains running over longer distances are based upon 185 mph speeds. The French TVG, which after 16 years of loss making operation, only managed to operate profitably by adopting the seat booking arrangements of the budget airlines. It was not based on the premise of being used by people with minimum salary levels of £81,000 pa. By using Ryan Airways low-cost high seat take principles the average cost of a TVG ticket from Paris to Marseille is £22. How much does the average ticket from Manchester to London cost on the present meccano network?

I forgot to add a properly upgraded WCML, rather than the present half hearted version, would be of much better benefit to the Northwest and to Warrington.

I see that the resident UKIP (unofficial?) spokesperson is trying to score party political points with this issue - this is an issue that is more important than that, Geoff.


However , if you are going to cut and paste declerations from the party's central politburo, about transport issues, then you should include the following


> as a party to the right of the tories, UKIP has a natural dislike of public transport (bit socialist don't you know - having to sit with all those plebs ! ) and dislikes expenditure on it at all - (for the same reason they would attack expenditure on the NHS, education etc. etc.)


> therefore, they would rather spend such money on roads - or to quote their website "building new bypasses and widening major roads" so a railway cutting through somewhere like the linear park, bad, a road built though it, good.

Seeing as West Cumbria has voted no to nuclear waste (no opinion) and Warrington BC no to an Arley extension (well done WBC planners) could we use HS2 to send the rubbish down to London for our policymakers to deal with quicker?

The business case for HS2 is rubbish and so could safely be consigned to some u/ground storage facility where ever they choose to put it. Talking of which Nyrex spent over a billion pounds drilling at various selected sites in the UK. One of which was in Cumbria which it concluded was unsuitable for long term use as
u/ground storage of nuclear waste. So West Cumbria's vote today, despite the government and its advisers moving the nuclear storage goal posts, after the Nyrex report, to make Cumbria "more acceptable", was - unlike the HS2 methodology - based on sound logical reasoning.

This was recently released by VoxOpp, the action group for the Villages of Oxfordshire Opposing HS2.

Anyone reading the Department for Transport’s much trumpeted “best ever” compensation scheme for those affected by the proposed high-speed railway from London to Birmingham (HS2), will be surprised to learn that hundreds of households will still be left out in the cold, uncompensated, unable to move house and facing the loss of a great part of what they have worked for over many years.

This is the fate of anyone whose property is beyond the limit of 120 metres from the track set by the Government. Within that limit it is true that improvements have been made that will enable people to move away with adequate compensation and pick up the pieces of their lives elsewhere. But if your property is for example 150 metres from the point where the 800 ton trains will rocket past at well over 200 mph every two minutes, your options are to sell your house at a giveaway price and start over again or stay put and accept that your life is going to be changed completely and that you have no say in the matter. In approximately fifteen years time when the train has been in operation for a year you will be able to claim some compensation for the increased noise and other nuisance, but this will come nowhere near compensating you for the loss in value of your property. If before that time you suffer extreme personal and financial disaster (but not one that is related to the building of HS2) you may qualify for the Government to buy your house under the Hardship Scheme. But be warned, only a tiny percentage of claimants have been successful so far.

The Government’s rationale for this is that house values tend to recover once new infrastructure is in place and becomes accepted. But the comparison with other projects does not hold water. HS2 has no value whatsoever for people living anywhere except at the extreme ends where the stations are, and certainly not for anyone in Oxfordshire, so there is nothing to offset the nuisance and bring values back up. Motorways and normal railways offer the benefit of easier travel, and airports – the nearest comparison noise-wise – offer fast travel and huge employment locally.

So the minority who will benefit from the new railway will be doing so at the expense of others and should spare a thought for those unfortunate people who live very close to the line but not quite close enough for compensation. These people will be putting their lives on hold for the next fifteen years waiting to see if their properties recover their value. And when this doesn’t happen all they will have left is the hollow satisfaction of saying to the government of the day “we told you so”.

I will pose a simple question to those who may know.

Is it actually possible to stop this project at this point in the process?

If the answer is yes, then how?
If the answer is no, then why not?

This will aid our thinking and I hope that it will bring some clarity to the comments.

It was nice to see Nigel Farage (UKIP) and Tessa Jowell (Labour) debating subjects such as the HS2 on a recent BBC Daily Politics Show.

Both with different views but each showing respect to each others point of view.

It would be nice if people making comments in the Warrington Guardian, a newspaper at the heart of the Warrington people, would show the same respect to each other.

We all owe it to the very people we live amongst in Warrington. The people want to see/hear a good debate otherwise they will be put off from getting involved in the very issues that impact their lives.

Please sign this e-petition to alter the HS2 Route around culcheth!

http://epetitions.di
rect.gov.uk/petition
s/45190

SAC_in_Warrington wrote:
I will pose a simple question to those who may know.

Is it actually possible to stop this project at this point in the process?

If the answer is yes, then how?
If the answer is no, then why not?

This will aid our thinking and I hope that it will bring some clarity to the comments.

My suspicion is that politicians on all sides have put their weight behind this project too much to now not allow it to go ahead. The business case has already been concocted in spite of its obvious flaws (including several outright falsehoods) so they are always going to push it through both to self-aggrandise themselves and to please party donors and large companies.

BTW - Great to see all of our local politicians voicing their opinions on this farcical project.

Compensation for that other link in the HS chain HS1 was decades in reaching those to whom it was due – Meanwhile passenger capacity is still at only 33% of that forecast.
A few quotes from a recent report by the parliamentary Public Accounts Committee put HS2 in a truer perspective:
'While HS1 provides an efficient service, contributing in an important way to British transport infrastructure, there were costly mistakes in the history of the project. These must not be repeated with HS2.
'The root of the problem is the inaccurate and wildly optimistic forecasts for passenger numbers.
'This isn’t the first time that over-optimistic planning and insufficiently robust testing of planning assumptions has got the department into trouble. The committee’s report on the East Coast Mainline raised similar concerns.' (There is another report due out shortly on the botched WCML upgrade.)
The PAC report went on to say ‘some of the DfT’s assumptions about the benefits of faster travel were 'simply untenable. Typically, the time business travellers save in using high-speed rail is valued at £54 per hour yet the time commuters save getting to and from work is only valued at £7 per hour. It is difficult to see how this can be justified. The department also assumes that all time spent on a train is unproductive. And unrealistic assumptions about ticket prices act to exaggerate passenger demand forecasts.'
'DfT also said that it had not considered the benefits and costs of alternatives to HS2 such as investment in broadband video-conferencing or investment in alternative, more local train routes.
'It is nonsense that the DfT does not have a full understanding of the wider economic impact and regeneration benefits of transport infrastructure, including HS1, to inform future investment decisions.’

South Korea revived its flagging economy by investing, a fraction of £36 million, in high speed broadband, and now benefits from an internet with speeds up to 100 megabits/second. The average UK connection speed is little over 3% of that. What is the point of reducing the costly travel time from Manchester to London by 40/50 minutes if when you arrive you are reliant on an internet connection which is back in the dark ages? The failure to consider the impact and benefits nationally of a significantly increased internet connection (eg. cost, investment, job creation and environmental) is lamentable, deliberately omitting it from the HS2 equation is almost criminal. But is what we have come to expect when politicians want get their way even though logic says they should not.

Don't want it. Not at the expense of all the wildlife it will destroy (why are we always doing this ??). Too fast, too expensive and why does everything have to be FAST these days !!!!! Hope it doesn't come off, in fact I'll pray it doesn't..

In my opinion the transport infrastructure has for decades provided safe-havens and protected spaces for wildlife by creating large stretches of largely people free corridors beside rail tracks, roads and before that canals. However some of the wild life it supports are rodents, foxes, badgers, rabbits, and birds of pray that are not always welcome in suburbia or even in the agricultural countryside.

The question 'Can anything be done to stop or change the plans of HS2' Everything is possible if we have people with the backbone to stand up and fight.

Politicians are more concerned with their own jobs than projects and when those jobs are threatened...they will act.

To the comment "that politicians on all sides have put their weight behind this project" Its true to say that the politicians of UKIP have never put their weight behind HS2.

UKIP will always listen to the people and believe the people should have their say and UKIP officials are allowed to support the needs of the local people and not just toe the party line like other party's.

This project is a Labour project and they had hoped Warrington would have a HS2 station along with the destruction of our landscape, now they have lost the station they can't very well stand up and say they want to save the landscape.

Message to CULCHETHNOTOHS2

If you contact the Warrington Branch of UKIP I am sure they will provide leaflets to your campaign.

ukipactiongroup@sky.
com

Either everybody or the Majority of people rally together to campaign against.... not just certain NIMBY sections. All that does is move the problem elsewhere.
I'm not sure still and need convincing either way if it's a good or bad idea?? Do we need it and what cost would be the Fare??
Would it bring or increase employment significantly?
What impact if any would it have on the wildlife in the long term?
What impact on the Enviroment?
What would the noise level be?
Many many more questions i'm sure but what really are the pro's and cons??

NOT coming to or through Warrington the headlines should have said. It travels at speed six miles away through the outskirts of the borough.

bellyblue wrote:
Either everybody or the Majority of people rally together to campaign against.... not just certain NIMBY sections. All that does is move the problem elsewhere.
I'm not sure still and need convincing either way if it's a good or bad idea?? Do we need it and what cost would be the Fare??
Would it bring or increase employment significantly?
What impact if any would it have on the wildlife in the long term?
What impact on the Enviroment?
What would the noise level be?
Many many more questions i'm sure but what really are the pro's and cons??

I think this sums it up. A disastrous victory for politicians with the people of the UK to cough up for their folly. http://www.guardian.
co.uk/commentisfree/
2013/jan/28/hs2-rail
-route-off-track

old-codger wrote:
NOT coming to or through Warrington the headlines should have said. It travels at speed six miles away through the outskirts of the borough.

Actually, HS2 trains WILL stop at Warrington Bank Quay, leaving / joining the new HS2 line at Crewe.

www.hs2.org.uk/sites
/default/files/inser
ts/cheshire_rfs.pdf

The Culcheth United - No Trains website needs to think up a better acronym - suspect that will be a short lived campaign!

SEB wrote:

old-codger wrote:
NOT coming to or through Warrington the headlines should have said. It travels at speed six miles away through the outskirts of the borough.

Actually, HS2 trains WILL stop at Warrington Bank Quay, leaving / joining the new HS2 line at Crewe.

www.hs2.org.uk/sites

/default/files/inser

ts/cheshire_rfs.pdf

Page not found

Exactly

SEB wrote:

old-codger wrote:
NOT coming to or through Warrington the headlines should have said. It travels at speed six miles away through the outskirts of the borough.

Actually, HS2 trains WILL stop at Warrington Bank Quay, leaving / joining the new HS2 line at Crewe.

www.hs2.org.uk/sites

/default/files/inser

ts/cheshire_rfs.pdf

I think that you defiantly need to read the web link (www.hs2.org.uk/site
s/default/files/inse
rts/cheshire_rfs.pdf
), again.

The line leaves the WCML at Crewe and joins it again south of Wigan, completely bypassing Warrington, therefore no opportunity for any trains to stop at Warrington Bank Quay.

I think what the pro HS2 lobbyists mean is that it serves Warrington if you travel somewhere else first. Then again that seems to be their rational with the idea that it will serve both Derby and Nottingham by having a terminal in a place called Toton. That's 11 miles from Derby and 7 miles from Nottingham.

Make no mistake. This is a project that has been forced through with no economic case and no environmental case by politicians, construction and engineering firms and their paid lobbyists and front groups.

For a scheme hailed (by some) as vital to our financial salvation, it is shrouded in an awful lot of secrecy see....
http://www.dailymail
.co.uk/news/article-
2272078/Homeowners-l
iving-near-planned-H
S2-train-line-claim-
compensation-excepti
onal-hardship-landma
rk-victory.

grey_man wrote:
I think what the pro HS2 lobbyists mean is that it serves Warrington if you travel somewhere else first. Then again that seems to be their rational with the idea that it will serve both Derby and Nottingham by having a terminal in a place called Toton. That's 11 miles from Derby and 7 miles from Nottingham. Make no mistake. This is a project that has been forced through with no economic case and no environmental case by politicians, construction and engineering firms and their paid lobbyists and front groups.

I am no lobbyist, just trying to promote the truth. The plans are that you won't have to travel somewhere else first, as I explained above trains WILL stop at Warrington and rejoin the line at Crewe.

Squabbling over incorrect assumptions detracts from real debate.

SAC_in_Warrington wrote:

SEB wrote:

old-codger wrote: NOT coming to or through Warrington the headlines should have said. It travels at speed six miles away through the outskirts of the borough.

Actually, HS2 trains WILL stop at Warrington Bank Quay, leaving / joining the new HS2 line at Crewe. www.hs2.org.uk/sites /default/files/inser ts/cheshire_rfs.pdf

I think that you defiantly need to read the web link (www.hs2.org.uk/site s/default/files/inse rts/cheshire_rfs.pdf ), again. The line leaves the WCML at Crewe and joins it again south of Wigan, completely bypassing Warrington, therefore no opportunity for any trains to stop at Warrington Bank Quay.

I had already read and studied all the info, thank you. I'll quote some of the relevant sections for you.

"Crewe and Warrington are expected to experience similar time savings to
the faster Liverpool services (around 30mins)."

"Towns across the wider North West will also gain
quicker journeys from HS2, with direct HS2 trains
able to run to Carlisle, Lancaster, Preston, Wigan,
Warrington and Runcorn."

Too many people seem to want to make there minds up instantly that they are either in favour of or are completely against HS2. With often complete disregard of the info available.

To be clear, I personally have very mixed feelings for various reasons I won't go into on here. But it's just daft to claim the exact opposite to the info that is very clearly presented.

A lot can happen between now and 2033. Parts of the plan may never happen.

SEB

The key part of that statement is 'are expected to'.

I've made up my mind about this train based on the fundamentally flawed business case which is built on plainly incorrect assumptions about the world we live in today, never mind the one we will live in twenty years from now.

grey_man wrote:
SEB

The key part of that statement is 'are expected to'.

I've made up my mind about this train based on the fundamentally flawed business case which is built on plainly incorrect assumptions about the world we live in today, never mind the one we will live in twenty years from now.

So long as you're not basing it on the misapprehension that HS2 trains will not stop at Bank Quay...

What misapprehension?

So Bank Quay will have HS2 trains will it?

SEB wrote:
Too many people seem to want to make there minds up instantly that they are either in favour of or are completely against HS2. With often complete disregard of the info available.

To be clear, I personally have very mixed feelings for various reasons I won't go into on here. But it's just daft to claim the exact opposite to the info that is very clearly presented.

Most of those who have said here they are against HS2 have obviously considered the facts, the published business case and then concluded the scheme is flawed on several counts. You are also surely not saying Professor Broomhead's views (see elsewhere in WG) are snap ill-considered judgements? He favours a proper upgrade of the WCML, because it will serve Warrington and Liverpool better than the chimera that is HS2.

lets all be honest most people don’t want a faster train. They want a better service as in a reasonable priced ticket and a seat rather than having to stand up.

SEB wrote:
Too many people seem to want to make there minds up instantly that they are either in favour of or are completely against HS2. With often complete disregard of the info available.

To be clear, I personally have very mixed feelings for various reasons I won't go into on here. But it's just daft to claim the exact opposite to the info that is very clearly presented.

Most people are busy earning a slice of bread to feed their family rather than have time looking over railway plans.

People know what a kick in the stomach is, they don’t need to understand why they got a kick in the stomach they know that it hurts them and they don’t want it. It’s as simple and as instantly as that and there is nothing wrong with people’s re-action.

Labour, the Conservatives and the LIB Dems are not going to tell the truth about HS2 and who really benefit from it just as they wont tell the people the truth about the EU and how they want to hand over total control of the UK to undemocratic and un- elected EU Commissioners . 75% of the UK Laws are controlled by the EU due to smoke screening the British people with the truth.

As for “clearly presented” I think of the continual smoke screens governments use to fool the people. Blair and his smoke screen to invade Iraq come to mind and Cameron’s current smoke screen about British troops on the ground in Mali.
And the biggest smoke screen to fool the British People is Camerons 'promise' of a in/out referendum on the EU. I dont blame people getting upset about HS2. Its all about trust.

Geoff Siddall wrote:

SEB wrote:
Too many people seem to want to make there minds up instantly that they are either in favour of or are completely against HS2. With often complete disregard of the info available.

To be clear, I personally have very mixed feelings for various reasons I won't go into on here. But it's just daft to claim the exact opposite to the info that is very clearly presented.

Most people are busy earning a slice of bread to feed their family rather than have time looking over railway plans.

People know what a kick in the stomach is, they don’t need to understand why they got a kick in the stomach they know that it hurts them and they don’t want it. It’s as simple and as instantly as that and there is nothing wrong with people’s re-action.

Labour, the Conservatives and the LIB Dems are not going to tell the truth about HS2 and who really benefit from it just as they wont tell the people the truth about the EU and how they want to hand over total control of the UK to undemocratic and un- elected EU Commissioners . 75% of the UK Laws are controlled by the EU due to smoke screening the British people with the truth.

As for “clearly presented” I think of the continual smoke screens governments use to fool the people. Blair and his smoke screen to invade Iraq come to mind and Cameron’s current smoke screen about British troops on the ground in Mali.
And the biggest smoke screen to fool the British People is Camerons 'promise' of a in/out referendum on the EU. I dont blame people getting upset about HS2. Its all about trust.

Well summed up, and a sincere thank you, for putting it into plain English.

grey_man wrote:
What misapprehension?

So Bank Quay will have HS2 trains will it?

Yes. Preston-Wigan-Warrin
gton-Crewe then onto HS2 to London. 1 hr 30 min Warrington to Euston.

Big effin whoop!!! it takes two hours to get to London......the centre of the universe for banking corruption and MP corruption and we are gonna shave 30 minutes off the journey for a stupid amount of money which will only benefit the very rich...........waste of money....end of.....and that should be that but with the Tory/Labour idiots they will party all night long about its benefits. There ain't any common sense left in England no more!!!!!!

Rex Mundi wrote:

grey_man wrote:
What misapprehension?

So Bank Quay will have HS2 trains will it?

Yes. Preston-Wigan-Warrin

gton-Crewe then onto HS2 to London. 1 hr 30 min Warrington to Euston.

And even if this 'intention' turns out to be true, it' still has no business case. Even less so because it already takes under two hours to get to London on some trains from Bank Quay.

So £36 billion (plus whatever crops up in the meantime obviously) to reduce what is productive time spent working by 20 odd minutes.

I'll swap you some information. I have a small business in Warrington and travel to London most weeks because of the nature of what I do. I try to book in advance but when meetings change - as they often do - I can end up spending large chunks of my income on fares.

Who are you?

Funny how these debates go strangely quiet when you ask that of somebody new to the messageboard. It's almost as if they might be paid-for lobbyists from construction companies.

tinkerb wrote:

Stan Tonks wrote:
West Coast is already at capacity - when open access and freight operators apply for new paths there are virtually none available. The problem on the west coast (I believe from Rail Magazine) is that the trains can go faster and tilt but because the infrastructure is more constrained (bends) and has lower signalling distance the amount of trains you can run is finite and the line will be full in a few years. I too detest being on full Virgin trains already full of people sat down working away when I get on at Warrington to travel a couple of stops down to Crewe. What HS2 will do if you read the consultant engineer report is take some traffic (be it trains or in effect the people that would be on trains) off WCML to be replaced with new traffic and trains. So yes it'll probably be as crowded again as it is now bit they'll also be plan B. A bit like having the M62 AND the West Lancs to go Mancs - Liverpool.

I'm not pro or anti train by the way but I am pro infrastructure and the more major projects near Warrington will help the town grow. Imagine how many jobs a new power station will bring, both during development and for operators.

Look how the motorways helped the new town growth - without them Warrington would still be a quiet backwater being missed out by people on their ways to the 'Cities' of Manchester and Liverpool.

Someone does have to suffer, we used to live in Culceth and nearly bought a house there ten years ago next to the Linear Park - only when our searches revealed that BR / Network Fail had never fully rescinded the right to rebuild a line on the old Linear Park did we start to think twice - and a bit more digging showed the proposals to link the proposed freight yard at Glazebury to Lowton re-opening the line existed help make the decision to pull out easier. Instead I bought a house in a nice quiet are next to a lovely old historic building which decayed through lack of investment and eventually got knocked down and built into flats. Tough luck, yes I accepted it though as while I own my house and my freehold, I don't own or have a right to a view and I don't own the neighbors land or that the council built the development on. Just the luck of the draw?

Infrastructure investment is what the UK needs, or if you disagree with my opinion on that you agree instead to say my name one hundred times (with an inserted word of your choice) before you blame traffic for the next jam you are sat in.

Culcheth Linear Park is our only park for miles. This will mean many people having to use cars to find parkland to walk in- not environmentally friendly. It is home to a lot of wildlife and many locals use it daily. What I don't understand is why the route is going through this area at all, as it's not anywhere near the most direct route between Birmingham and Manchester!

Because it is available and this was the intent of the owner if and when the opportunity arose. It also links to other and under used lines to and from the local rail-network.

The wild life will colonise the next available space. I am sure that there is ample space for the activities that you to think that will be missed in your largely rural area. You may choose to use the car to go far afield but you don't need to in my opinion.

HS2 proponents have stopped harping on about its supposed ecological benefits because it is not 'clean' as they first argued. By the time HS2 is up and running, if it ever is, the case for it may well be as transient as was that of Dr Beeching when he decimated the old rail network, and then had the cheek to say he would do the same again. Had we retained most those old lines and just got rid of the trains on them instead of selling off the land we might have been able to upgrade our railways more positively. Although Beeching could not be blamed for that, like HS2 his brief was too narrow and so he did not look beyond cutting and pruning to contain cost.We seem very adept at reinventing the wheel in this country at some cost. We got rid of trams and then later reintroduced them under another guise them in many major cities.